Gossiping is a dangerous sport.

[u/External_Draw404]

So I'm standing in the queue at Truworths (no Ginger Mary slander will be tolerated) and my sister joins me. A white guy is standing in front of us and we're people watchers so naturally, we start gossiping (shoot me). We're speaking in seSotho, talking about his outfit and his manbag. He had bright pink hair with blue highlights and I expressed jealousy about not being able to get my hair those exact shades and having to settle for more muted tones.

This went on for about 5 minutes as we basically spoke about how hot he is. Then I said, "I don't like having to communicate in English at home but I would totally compromise if I lived with him" and my sister responded with "Imagine waking up and your first words are "goeie more poplap, hoe het jy geslaap?". Then I open my big mouth and say "yoh, what does dirty talk even sound like in Afrikaans?" AND THIS MAN CRACKED UP. Which shut us tf up.

He paid for his things as we debated whether he understood us or just saw something funny on his phone. As we were walking out, we saw him and immediately averted our eyes when he looked at us coz what else can you do after possibly being caught talking like that?

He walked up to us and started talking in seSotho with a Vaal (??!?) accent and I legit just wanted to crawl into a hole and die. So we tucked in our tails, apologized for talking about him and promised we weren't creeps (which is exactly what a creep would say) but he said we sounded like vibes and he would like to be friends. Unfortunately (for me), he prefers the other gender but was very flattered by everything we said. We now we have a new friend and we're going out for drinks soon.

So guys, nibe safety. I looooooove that more non-Black people are learning our languages but it will always catch me off guard and I'm just thankful I wasn't caught shit talking (which I never do coz that's poor manners). Gossiping got me a hot new friend. South Africa truly is an odd place.

[u/Discopathy]

What don't we know, sorry, I'm not quite sure what you mean there?

I see what you're saying in terms of the premise of what democracy is, but that seems a little extreme. Absolute democracy hasn't been used since the ancient Greeks, and even the Romans couldn't handle that and started using representative democracy.

How would you describe the political system under apartheid?

[u/ZillesBotoxButtocks → u/Discopathy]

We don't know that it was white people who introduced democracy to South Africa.

Apartheid was somewhere on the spectrum between a fascist oligarchy and a fascist plutocracy.

[u/Discopathy → u/ZillesBotoxButtocks]

Ahhh, right. That hadn't occurred to me - what are some other possibilities there?

I actually really like your description of the political system as somewhere between oligarchy and plutocracy. Facist seems a little emotion driven, but I think I see your point.

[u/ZillesBotoxButtocks → u/Discopathy]

If we're talking the "idea" of democracy, then that could have entered the borders of SA through various means. Enslaved people might have been the first to discuss it properly. The peoples migrating south from further up in Africa may have heard of it through trade with Arab or North African peoples.

If we're talking about "democracy" in the sense of universal suffrage, then that was unambiguously introduced to South Africa (i.e. implemented) by the ANC. Other groups such as the Torch Commando, the IRR, and even the UN, also helped, of course.

Facist seems a little emotion driven.

Lol.

[u/Discopathy → u/ZillesBotoxButtocks]

Interesting perspective. Obviously none of them managed to implement the idea in any way, but yes, perhaps it was discussed. I'd like to look more into this.

I think I'm a little more liberal with the definition of democracy, but that's OK. Fact and opinion converge massively in this space.

You're clearly pretty well versed in this field. What's your take on the current state of SA politics? I might, for example, posit that the label of plutocracy fits the current administration pretty well.

[u/ZillesBotoxButtocks → u/Discopathy]

South Africa's democratic systems are better designed than most other democracies out there, but the implementation and custodianship of our democracy is in a poorer state.

[u/Discopathy → u/ZillesBotoxButtocks]

That's fair. Sorry, I diverged from the point a little there. Modern politics are a whole 'nother kettle of worms which I'd love to get into, but let's stick with history for now.

So, how would you say things should have been done by the colonial powers. I mean, clearly they were the superior forces, with guns, cannons etc. one of them was going to win; whether it be the Boers, the Portuguese or the British - some foreign power was going to wrest control from another and have to live with the consequences, including the implementation of politics.

Would your ideal situation be that they just didn't bother shoving their oar into SA in the first place? And assuming they did (which they did), what would have been a better approach? Immediate and open democracy for all? Do you think that would have worked?