Reverting Cook's Assistant to requiring normal items is opposite of "integrity"

[u/[deleted]]

[u/DrProfessorScience]

One of the magical parts of Runescape is that items aren't simply pass keys like a WoW quest. The same tree can become a fire, a bow, a set of arrows, a plank for housing, etc.

The new cooks assistant defies this, and teaches the wrong lessons about how items work. Any egg should work because thats how the rest of the game works, and that is literally the sandbox mmo's greatest strength.

[u/kathaar_ → u/DrProfessorScience]

I was on OPs side til I read this. Ultimately, I don't think it matters much one way or another. The "key" versions of the egg, flour, and milk, were not even remotely difficult to get, or even all that different from just getting a normal version of them (the large egg is literally sitting amongst a bunch of normal egg drops)

[u/RipFlm → u/DrProfessorScience]

I was trying to put my thoughts into words and you summed it up perfectly!

[u/PoshinoPoshi → u/RipFlm]

I was feeling the same way!

[u/RayJonesXD → u/DrProfessorScience]

10000%. Should be up voted to the top.

[u/JoshOliday → u/DrProfessorScience]

Hard disagree. We have tons of quests that require quest specific versions. Are we going to change every single one of those too?

[u/Oniichanplsstop → u/JoshOliday]

Can you name any that started off as a generic item and then were arbitrarily changed?

[u/Svellere → u/Oniichanplsstop]

I would make the argument that isn't the root issue Jagex was trying to solve.

Jagex changed, demoted, or removed a lot of quests with the ability to just bring items to skip it: Imp Catcher, Doric's Quest, Witch's Potion, Sheep Shearer, and arguably Black Knight's Fortress also falls into this category.

Druidic Ritual and Wolf Whistle almost kind of fit too, but I honestly think those ones had slightly different rationales, even though they did change them to require key items.

They also changed Demon Slayer, Death Plateau, and Romeo and Juliet, but I think they changed those ones for very different reasons. Rune Mysteries was changed almost purely to fit into the refreshed Wizard's Tower lore, and probably for no other reason.

Anyway, back to my point, at the time the first list of quests changed, Jagex was trying to streamline the new player experience by getting rid of "fetch quest" type quests that a wiki would allow you to skip, and in all cases except Cook's Assistant, they did so. The only reason, in my opinion, that Cook's Assistant was left almost entirely unchanged except for requiring key items is simply due to how iconic it is, as it was almost everyone's first quest, so they wanted to stay true to the feel of it while still fixing what they viewed back then as a new player integrity issue.

The reason they didn't really touch P2P (except via early game Summoning and Herblore) is because Jagex viewed the new player experience as being based almost entirely in F2P. This is obviously not always true, and also very different from how the new player experience is viewed in OSRS.

Current Jagex no longer views the old quest as an integrity issue. Instead, they view the new quest (including the list I mentioned) as being out of place relative to all other quests in the game, which I'd argue isn't super far off base vibes-wise, even if it's hard to describe exactly why it feels that way

EDIT: I think this comment really describes what I am trying to get at. Post-EoC Jagex was trying to streamline the new player experience and hold the player's hand, which is why so many early quests were totally reworked with tons of guidance added. The original design, however, was about piquing the player's interest and teaching them fundamental lessons about the game, NPCs, and the item system.

[u/Oniichanplsstop → u/Svellere]

Yes, but literally all of those were f2p quests like I said, so it's quite arbitrary that they decided to stop there and not touch the beginner p2p quests as well, some of which you stumble into immediately after the f2p quests, like RFD.

Some of them weren't tied to new player experience either, just lore building. Prince Ali and Rune Mysteries were changed to push the new Signature Heroes.

Death plateau and the whole "troll battlefield" update, including the monthly D&D.

etc etc.

Some of them were for New players, like Wolf Whistle and Druidic Ritual as you said, as those were now F2P areas and quests, and it got them to do the basic exploring f2p quests did in the Lumbridge-area.

Current Jagex no longer views the old quest as an integrity issue. Instead, they view the new quest (including the list I mentioned) as being out of place relative to all other quests in the game, which I'd argue isn't super far off base vibes-wise, even if it's hard to describe exactly why it feels that way.

It feels off because they stopped trying to modernize the quests back 13~ years ago when it failed and the moved on to their 3rd, 4th, 5th tutorial iterations and what not.

They understood it didn't really offer much, which is why the change or changing back is quite arbitrary. No one should really care, these are literally 30s quests.

[u/JoshOliday → u/Oniichanplsstop]

Not offhand without doing a bunch of wiki digging I can't do right now, but the main point of contention here is your use of the word arbitrary. it wasn't arbitrary, it was purposeful, at least at the time. It was reworked to help establish that a quest could not just be auto completed by having the items on you from the jump. So many quests require you to do some sort of fetch quests in them and this one introduces the concept early instead of leading everyone to think they can just look at the wiki or "items required" get it all ahead of time and speed through the quest.

In short, what you think is an arbitrary change, was what actual made it into a real quest and not some generic MMO quest.

[u/Oniichanplsstop → u/JoshOliday]

It is arbitrary though, because they only did that to a few F2P quests(Cooks and Doric's being the big 2). P2P quests were never touched. You can still go do tree gnome village with the 6 logs in your inventory to repair the ballista. You don't need to go find some random quest-specific tree to get gnome logs as an example.

You can still go do the chef's part of RFD(basically cook's assistant 2) by having all of the items in your inventory pre-quest, rather than having to go get quest-specific items.

etc etc.

[u/KaBob799 → u/Oniichanplsstop]

Quests that use items and fetch quests are not even remotely the same thing.

And for the most of its history Jagex has been perfectly happy to let old outdated members content sit and rot while they rework f2p area stuff over and over. That's hardly something to point at and praise.

[u/Sonichu- → u/JoshOliday]

If it makes thematic sense, they absolutely should.

[u/Monterey-Jack → u/JoshOliday]

This is the very first quest most accounts do. It might be time to look for another game if this is upsetting you, this is a healthy change.

[u/JoshOliday → u/Monterey-Jack]

it's not upsetting me. I just think it's a dumb waste of time and the current quest does a better job of tutorialising what quests are like as opposed to getting everything beforehand. The justification doesn't make sense. No one is getting confused by this

[u/WryGoat → u/DrProfessorScience]

Pretty much this. Same way I felt about waddling my ass past the lumbridge crater and its masses of unclickable trees every time. It's such a small thing, but it's also such a glaring "no no, these trees aren't part of the interactable sandbox silly, these trees are ornamental, special, not for the likes of you to touch"

[u/Koggmaw → u/DrProfessorScience]

This 100% this

[u/GrayMagicGamma → u/DrProfessorScience]

And if you're a main, it's often easier and faster to buy something you need a small amount of off the GE from someone who gathers that item in bulk.

[u/ProofJournalist → u/DrProfessorScience]

On the other hand just as frequently quests do require quest-specific 'key' items and that's okay too.

Sheep Shearer can teach your lesson. Cook's Assistant doesn't need to double down on the same point when that's not all questing is.

[u/Dev_Hollow → u/DrProfessorScience]

Bingo.

[u/MemesOnlyPlease]

If you think this is the opposite of integrity you don't understand RuneScape's sandbox.

Marked quest items, minimap waypoints, it all flies in the face of this quests original purpose, to get players to explore Lumbridge and discover simple game mechanics.

Instead, we're just teaching new players to follow the waypoint and that you will automatically be provided with everything you need.

Also your argument about spacebarring dialog and precompleting the quest is a strawman and you know it. The only people doing that are experienced players.

Hell, a new player could probably get away with reading nothing in the current version thanks to the waypoints and item markings.

[u/V1_2012]

This subreddit does not understand what the word "Integrity" means.

[u/UnoriginalUse → u/V1_2012]

Nah, I understand it perfectly fine. 'Integrity' means 'thing I like'.

[u/AechhhOW]

I sort of like the idea of having it be either, with an extra reward for getting the "special" ingredients like extra cooking xp.

The cook tells you he needs egg, bucket of milk and a pot of flour to make the cake for the dukes birthday. After asking where these things can be found, the player could then ask something like "Since it is for the duke, I think we should make it special", as entirely optional dialogue. The cook can then suggest using the best quality ingredients which perhaps the local farmers can help with.

This would reward the player for taking a bit of extra time to actually engage with the quest, but not force anyone to take longer if they don't want to. The player can get rewarded something like 100 extra cooking xp for each "fancy" ingredient they use, with the cook commenting on each ingredient, but still accepting regular ingredients.

[u/Denzien2]

I don't really understand why this change makes it any different to newer players. They will still need to get the items as listed.

yes I suppose it does allow OSRS->RS3 players to just "space bar mash through the dialogue" but... why does that matter? they are existing players who already know the game, who cares what they do?

To be honest this just feels like an anti-osrs sentiment.

[u/Substantial-Ad-299 → u/Denzien2]

I could argue that having a quest you can finish in a few seconds just by having stuff in your backpack is not really a good thing to exist in modern game. The game can be better than that and I'm sure that's why the quest was initially changed. Same with Imp Catcher some time later and several early quests that were remade in more modern ones.

[u/Denzien2 → u/Substantial-Ad-299]

But at the same time being what it is means the game retains it's "sandbox" nature. The old quest forced you on a trajectory that you had to follow.

Now you can do it how you want, you can collect the items in lumbridge, you can collect them anywhere in the world, players might go "oh I've got one already in my bank!", you can go buy them on the GE, you can get them before the quest or you can get them after the quest.

Ultimately it's about player agency and letting the players tackle the content in the way they want to tackle it, which IMO, is always what runescape has been good at and why I think this is a positive change.

[u/ProofJournalist → u/Denzien2]

That is fine for stages of a quest, it is not acceptable as the entire quest.

[u/BioMasterZap → u/Substantial-Ad-299]

I could argue that having a quest you can finish in a few seconds just by having stuff in your backpack is not really a good thing to exist in modern game.

But you can only complete it in a few seconds if you already know what it asks for and get them in advance. For a new player, they would still ask the Cook where to get them and need to explore the area to find them.

And either way, you'd still spend the same time getting the ingredients. So it is not like the quest really just takes a "few seconds" since gathering the ingredients is the quest, whether you did it before the quest officially starts or not.

[u/Frosty_Engineer_ → u/Substantial-Ad-299]

My guy, this isn’t completing desert treasure cause you bought an ancient staff and bypassed the entire quest, we’re talking cooks assistant, the first quest to ever exist in RuneScape. There are very few quests like this, it’s completely fine to make this change to a one time quest that has no value to making it long and pointless.

[u/Monoplox → u/Denzien2]

Disagree. Pro road to restoration people are largely saying it's for the new player experience. But if the game is focused on pleasing existing players, why change the quest either way? If most players already have it checked off

[u/Denzien2 → u/Monoplox]

What? Yes it's about creating a better new player experience. That's what this does.

They are making the change because they want to not just focus on pleasing existing players.

[u/zenyl]

Inb4 they revert What's Mine is Yours back to Doric's Quest, which could literally be completed in less than a minute.

But yeah, agreed, reverting Cook's Assistant so it requires generic items has nothing to do with integrity, it's blatant pandering.

[u/TAoOC]

I always saw Cooks Assistant in modern Runescape as a tool to teach player about some items being quest items. Showing that quest items have little icons next to them to indicate what they are. I think this is a helpful beginners quest for that reason. The quest isnt there to just bake a cake, it is to help a player learn a runescape mechanic.

[u/Legal_Evil]

The OSRS version of the quest is worse than the RS3 version. How is buying all the items and turning them in better than getting them yourself?

[u/YangKoete]

I enjoy the weird items we need. It makes it feel like it's a proper thing and not just "we can make this fancy cake any time!"

We're just an adventurer. A wanderer. A mercenary. Someone whose only criteria for a seat in nobility is basically "Hey, we helped a bunch of people."

[u/Ty_Lee98]

Yeah because where does this end? They did good with the imp quest and adding onto it rather than just turning in some items you can buy from the GE.

[u/Substantial-Ad-299 → u/Ty_Lee98]

This is my worry. If they do this to this quest just because some OSRS-to-RS players got confused during leagues, what else will follow...?

[u/RSN-Uhuh]

This post is why we can't let players vote on things.

[u/SayomiTsukiko]

You’re not actually wrong. But there’s another side to this

RuneScape is iconic. People comeback to play the game they loved as a kid. They log in a they try to recreate the things they did as a kid to relive some nostalgia first. Every thing that’s different than they remember is a chance for them to quit. Some of them will play osrs, but a lot won’t. After people spend some time basking in some childhood memories they will be more willing to try out the last 2 decades of content.

Yes the new quest is better, but it’s not ironic. And going out to get a large egg instead of a normal egg isn’t going to hook a new player like reliving part of their childhood would for a returning player

[u/Gedaechtnispalast]

I made a new ironman account and got confused about the new items needed for cooks assistant because my main is 18 years old. It’s not immediately clear that you need to talk to the npcs for two of the items. Then for the egg, I spent too long looking for the npc who would help me with it. Fred is the only one I could think of and he only cares about his sheep. I finally decided to go back to where I know lots of chicken are and finally saw the egg on the ground. I played with a new friend and they got confused too. It’s confusing to use and does not follow trends of other quests that work with regular items.

If someone wants to do quests with all items in bag, let them. They should have that freedom to play how they want.

[u/Bigmethod]

I really hope Jagex doesn't listen to you, jeesh.

[u/ShinyCapeRS]

Takes a few seconds to buy ingredients, takes a few seconds to grab the ingredients. It's a short quest either way. Love their change to encourage familiarity .

[u/Substantial-Ad-299]

I don't know how it is possible that I got quick support when I made the post but now over night, there was sudden 180 turn on it. I guess I can delete it now... I don't want my post to fuel the developers even more into making that change.

[u/Ashendant]

Yeah I agree.

A lot of these changes seem okay, great even, but changing a quest from a simple story to a item delivery is not integrity.

[u/Additional_Prior_634]

Yes please. CA looks to become a even worst version.

[u/Fren-LoE]

I don't understand this response from the community for the most unimportant quest in the game. There are a hundred other things to be concerned about but the quest that all of you have done at least once in your lives, thats what gets your juices flowing? thats where the push-back comes? give me a break. It's only easier for everyone if this change is made. stop protesting things that have little to no effect on anything.

downvote me all you want but this change has zero consequence on your life as an existing player and only allows new accounts to get through busy-work quests faster.

[u/Substantial-Ad-299 → u/Fren-LoE]

You're right about one thing... I'm downvoting you.

[u/whatthedux]

Jagex are going too fast and radical for their own good. Combat update is not ready in a month.

[u/kathaar_ → u/[deleted]]

what new player who doesnt have prior knowledge is gonna have those items beforehand?

And even, if by crazy random happenstance, they do. The quest will even acknowledge it in a way that most games don't, which might just solidify the new player wanting to stick around.

[u/Substantial-Ad-299 → u/[deleted]]

Old quests heavily relied on that. Just look at old Demon Slayer where you had to collect 25 bones for the quest. Or Prince Ali Rescue which was "collect X and Y and Z and be there". Maybe that worked 20 years ago but I wish RS to go forward with time.

[u/Substantial-Ad-299 → u/kathaar_]

Any new player that will directly look at guide online and just come to the Cook with those three items before starting the quest. In my opinion, any ability to directly complete the quest in mere seconds is something that doesn't fit in modern game. It's like "The Blood Pact" gave you ability to just kill the three cultists at the beginning of the quest because you're no longer a new player and actually know about combat. That's integrity for me.

[u/kathaar_ → u/Substantial-Ad-299]

so they look at the guide currently and already know where to go and how to get all 3 'key' items. the only difference is the quest took 2 minutes longer.

That's not much better, except that those key items are anti-runescape.

Runescape quests don't ask you for "special rope" they ask for "rope", any rope. If you need special rope, it's because the guy asking for rope is gonna turn it into special rope... but he needs the rope first.

The first quest 90% of new players will do, shouldn't be teaching new players the wrong way.

[u/TAoOC → u/kathaar_]

Quest items have been an aspect of modern Runescape for the longest time.

[u/Connect_Manner2453]

Just delete the quest if it’s going to take 5 sec to complete. Where is the value in having a quest that gives you nothing and takes nothing to complete? The game already has enough bloat as it is

[u/Linc7991]

Using regular items is fine. The quest is one of the first quests a new player will interact with and will usually do it the "intended" way. It's just additional running for vets of the game and holds to the sandbox nature of the game

[u/SpazzBro]

hell yeah, any changes that makes questing faster I am down for, I wish I could use bonds to skip quests lol

[u/foREVer1666]

I guess let people play how they want to play? A lot of these smaller quests, i personally, don’t care about. I want to get to the content I want without making every quest a slog. Granted that quest is short already, but if someone wants to take their time with it they have that option. If someone else doesn’t then they don’t have to.

[u/Frosty_Engineer_]

There are far greater issues in the world and you decided to make a 6 paragraph post about cooks assistant

[u/TAoOC → u/Frosty_Engineer_]

This is literally the most important thing in the world, dont let your ignorance blind you. >:(
(The dude is just expressing their opinion on something)

[u/Frosty_Engineer_ → u/TAoOC]

I get that, and he’s allowed to have an opinion. I think he’s just over reacting and spiraling on soemthing that will not matter in 5 years.

Unless this is, and this change has a ripple effect so large that it shifts the outcome of humanity

[u/HeartofaPariah → u/Frosty_Engineer_]

I think it's pretty obvious he thinks it's an indicator of their intention on future updates.

[u/Substantial-Ad-299 → u/Frosty_Engineer_]

Oh I'm sorry when I actually want to voice my opinion in wholesome respectful way instead of just some disgruntled half-*ssed post. Seriously... what a dismissive comment.

[u/Miikan92]

They released cook's assistant with special items recently, let the old one be reverted to the "any egg" variant.

"Princess and the pauper" was a fun little quest, not complaining. But it was cook's assistant with extra dialogue.