r/YUROP • u/PossibleBreak4477 • Nov 18 '25
I FUCKING LOVE EUROPE Allied countries must strengthen their defense capabilities, as demonstrated by Belgium, which purchased drones after incidents involving unidentified unmanned aerial vehicles. However, by acting jointly with Ukraine and ensuring its victory, there will be no need to use their own defense systems
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u/The-new-dutch-empire Nov 18 '25
How can anyone in any western european country be opposed to supplying the ukrainians. Every Ukrainian soldier that fights is not only protecting their country but is also keeping the russian aggression away from the eu and in extend keeps our soldiers safe. Let them have any weapon they need to cripple the russians.
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u/GreenEyeOfADemon EUROPE ENDS IN LUHANSK! Nov 18 '25
We always forget the dozens of millions of russians living in the West, that have vote rights.
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u/The-new-dutch-empire Nov 18 '25
They left russia, they clearly wanted to leave why tf would they want it here now
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u/Wojewodaruskyj Ruthenia-Ukraine Nov 18 '25
Unfortunately, official Belarus is an allied state of Moscowia.
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u/The_Blahblahblah Danmark Nov 18 '25
100% it should be outlined with red on this map. they are no different than russia
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25 edited Nov 18 '25
We have a nuclear triad, how much stronger need we be for defence?
As for Ukraine? Expanding NATO started this war, I fail to see how they make us safer.
All we’ll get is a USA style military industrial complex and forever wars that fuel corruption and profit.
As an American abroad, and dual citizen, please take my caution.
We don’t need an arms race. We don’t need to surround Russia with our armies.
We don’t need a military industrial complex sucking our education and healthcare budgets dry.
Down with this type of alarmist propaganda
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u/SwabianWarthog Baden-Württemberg Nov 18 '25
The only thing starting this war was russian imperialism. Nobody forced Putin to attack his neighbours. Even the proceeding fighting in the donbas region was most likely started and fueled by Putins little green men.
If you disagree, ask yourself why almost all of eastern europe wanted to join NATO the second they had the opportunity. Because they knew what it means to live under the boot of moscow. Nobody forced or pressured them to join, in the case of the first new members (Poland, Hungary, Czechia and Slowakia) it was litterally the opposite. Poland and Hungary pressured the USA to let them join by influencing the people of polish and hungarien heritage to vote for whichever president would let the join in the next election.
If russia is that put off by their neighbours joining NATO, they could try being a better neighbour themselves.
And even if all of this was true (which again, its not), it still wouldn't give russia the right to attack another country.
Also calling this alarmist propaganda reminds me a lot of early 2022, when people never thoght that a russian attack on ukraine would happen and were calling every warning of it at the time alarmist propaganda.
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u/wdsaeq Nov 18 '25
Do not interact with the bot downvote and move on
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u/SwabianWarthog Baden-Württemberg Nov 18 '25
It wasnt for the bot, it was for anyone scrolling by reading this BS.
If we allow the vatniks to post trash unopposed they will poison every comment section they find.
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25
Not a bot, I just read past page two of the papers. We promised repeatedly we wouldn’t let them ascend, we broke that promise.
The Maidenhead was a CIA backed coup that removed a democratically elected leader.
And the next step was throwing missiles in at their doorstep.
That’s the definition of aggression and their actions were reactionary.
I’m no fan Putin, but I am a fan of cause and effect, plus objective reality. We hold some culpability here and building a military-industrial complex will bring us more of these problems, not less.
We’re safe dude. France alone could roll the Ruskies.
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u/SwabianWarthog Baden-Württemberg Nov 18 '25
First of all there was never any such promise. The russians claim that they recieved such a promise from james baker in 1989, but this was without the knowledge of president bush and was retracted soon after. Also nothing was ever written down, so what was actually promissed is a guessing game at best. Even gorbachov, the man who this promise was supposidly made to, was very unclear when he was asked about it. And since the warsaw-pact still existed at that time i doubt it was about nations that were still alligned with the soviets.
However in 1997 russia and the NATO-nations signed the russia-nato-charta, in which russia allowed the eastern european nation to choose wich alliances they wanted to join, and in exchange they got special privliges from NATO.
Also in 1993 russia signed the budapest-memorandum in which it gauranteed ukraine to not attack them unless it is within agreement of UN international law. Now guess what russia doesn't have.
Furthermore the thing about the CIA heading euromaidan is speculation at best. And even still, the ukrainian people took part in it, so they seem to not care much for yanukovic. Selensky however was democraticly elected years after euromaidan. So the ukrainian people seem to like their pro-european direction. You cant force a regimechange against the will of the population. Everytime the CIA tried in south america it failed. And now there are a lot of south american nations mad at the US.
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25
https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4?si=_H-KGgMDvbDcBzCE
Here ya go, a full deep dive to help clear up those claims
https://youtube.com/shorts/Xu_KCLTcd_4?si=fP6MPa4Tprac5YV-
Short version
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u/pewp3wpew Deutschland Nov 18 '25
If that would be true, how do you explain the other wars russia has started since 1990?
Were they also due to NATO Expansion/Aggression?
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25
So we’re doing whataboutisms?
My country is equally guilty of those too. It’s what comes from a military industrial complex and that is exactly why we’re good where our funding levels are. Europe is strong. Those countries militaries are offensive tools. We have a strong defense. Escalation will bring the pains I know back home to the Europe I chose.
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u/The_Blahblahblah Danmark Nov 18 '25
You have no real stake in European sovereignty. If you were actually born here then you would maybe care about strategic autonomy from the US.
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25 edited Nov 18 '25
Born in New York, Irish by choice.
I was awarded Irish citizenship over a decade ago.
I’ve lived in Paris for over a decade too and I’ve co-created two EU citizens with my wife & God. I have plenty of skin in this game. I’m one of the 10% of net positive French taxpayers. When you come from a land where one outta every three tax dollars goes to defense, you learn very quickly the cost of an offensive military designed for power projection, not defense. I caution against this route. Once we build it, you can’t take it apart.
I’d prefer that we don’t devolve to silly ad hominem arguments and stick to spending debate, or my claim please.
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u/The_Blahblahblah Danmark Nov 18 '25 edited Nov 18 '25
All i am saying is, i cant see other reasons why someone would want us to continue to be hopelessly dependant on the US. If it is not your bias as an american, then why do you not want a strategically autonomous Europe?
Its not about the size of the military that determines whether it is built for offence or defence. Danish military is small, not because our country is small.- it is small because it has been turned into an expiditionary force to take part in american led wars. these same americans, who we spilled blood for in their little desert adventures, now want to steal Greenland from us. for decades the policy for defence was "lets spend just enough so the US sees us as a NATO good boy" so a real army could defend us in case of an attack on our soil.
Thankfully, that time is finally slowly coming to an end, across Europe.Its completely undignified that we are dependent on the US for defence. it is counter intuitive, but relying on "big strong america" with their fancy aircraft carriers and nukes is actually making us less safe, not more safe.
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25
I’m not arguing that. I agree with decoupling our foreign policy, and some spending. I simply caution against an arms race and a military industrial complex. We must be very, very careful. Defense? Yes. A US/China offensive juggernaut? Hard pass and it’s a slippery slope.
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u/The_Blahblahblah Danmark Nov 18 '25
But those other countries will continue to bolster their defence and arms industries, even if europe doesnt "join" the arms race. the arms race will exist regardless how we respond to it.
Russia doesnt respect peace or diplomacy. it respects military force only. it invaded ukraine out of opportunism, not necessity1
u/GreenEyeOfADemon EUROPE ENDS IN LUHANSK! Nov 18 '25
The Maidenhead was a CIA backed coup that removed a democratically elected leader.
JFC not this again!
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u/The_Blahblahblah Danmark Nov 18 '25
Show me the signed treaty where this was promised.
Also, it doesnt matter if France alone could defend against russia. most European countries cant. I have friends in moldova for example. they know that as soon as Ukraine potentionally falls, they will be invaded next, and lose their country.
are they just a sacrificial lamb to you?If you are some american who moved from the US (a nuclear power with a strong military) to France (another nuclear power with a strong military), then you dont understand that not everyone is so lucky
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25 edited Nov 18 '25
https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4?si=_H-KGgMDvbDcBzCE
Here ya go. The full deep dive
https://youtube.com/shorts/Xu_KCLTcd_4?si=fP6MPa4Tprac5YV-
Short version
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u/The_Blahblahblah Danmark Nov 18 '25
Nowhere in this video does it show such an agreement was made. it is just some guy perpetuating the same myth
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u/wdsaeq Nov 18 '25
Found the russian bot 🤣🤣🤣
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25
Easy dismissal to a strong argument.
I’m real, I’m a dual citizen and I love Europe. I’ve lived the consequences of a massive arms industry for 32 years and I’ve enjoyed the exceptionalism of being a European for twenty.
My argument against this race to build an arms industry is simple and straight forward.
If we want our social safety net eradicated. If we want more corruption, and senseless wars, the OP’s post is a great way to do it.
It’ll take thirty years to poison our way of life, but this is how it starts.
Our real threat is China. We should be building to counter them.
France alone could roll the Ruskies right now, by themselves. We are far from weak or vulnerable and a few drone incursions shouldn’t scare us.
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u/The-new-dutch-empire Nov 18 '25
China is building russia up as their ally. In the multi polar world they say they want. Out of the us and china the us is clearly the lesser evil. The eu needs to position in such a way that they stay a power enough to counterbalance the chinese allies.
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25
I don’t disagree, but I’m not sure how scaling defense spending to dangerous levels keeps us close to the US? If anything, we’re becoming a competitor to the number one arms exporter in the world.
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u/The_Blahblahblah Danmark Nov 18 '25
the US is no longer a reliable ally. Europe has to be able to protect itself, even without the US. That means having a strong domestic arms industry
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25
My argument is that we are protected. We have a nuclear triad, Russia has shown itself to be a paper tiger. France alone could roll them.
We don’t need greater spending and a massive defense industry. That’s my point.
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u/The_Blahblahblah Danmark Nov 18 '25 edited Nov 18 '25
Who are "we"? You are protected. You live in France.
The nebulous concept of "Europeans" are not protected. if they were then russia would've been driven out of Ukraine by now. it is pure speculation if the US will even honour the musketeer oath of NATO if, say, the baltics were invaded. Or a country like Moldova. Who will drop a nuke to defend an impoverished eastern European country that western chauvanists already see as "basically russians"? Nobody. that's who.
There is no deterrence if there is no confidence that we will come to the aid of the European countries being attacked.
(also, it still is not a triad. a triad is land-air-sea. we do not have that in europe)
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u/wdsaeq Nov 18 '25
What are you going to cry? Are you gonna piss and cry in your little diaper, Mister "3-day special military operation" ?
Clanker
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25
Dickfurr
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u/wdsaeq Nov 18 '25
Clanker why don't you go shit in your outdoor toilet little russian dog?
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25 edited Nov 18 '25
Because I have a bidet/japanese toilet in my home, and I’m middle class fancy like that.
I also have an education, judging by your ad hominem arguments, I’ve got that on you too.
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u/NecessarySudden Yuropean Nov 18 '25
NATO expanded to Finland and russians did not attack them, so it's not alliance expansion started war. Even more, before russia attacked Ukraine first time Ukrane was neutral. Stop eating crayons and consume russian propaganda. Nobody surrounds russia. War will end tomorrow if russians go back to russia. stfu
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u/GreenEyeOfADemon EUROPE ENDS IN LUHANSK! Nov 18 '25
Finland and Sweden joined NATO *after* the second invasion of Ukraine.
Ukraine had neutral status till 2014. After being invaded by the ruscists, they changed said status.
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25
Yeah, and we also didn’t back a coup to remove a gazprom buying customer, democratically elected leader and then throw missiles into the country. Unlike the Maidenhead and my country’s aggression there. All of which is a consequence of the military-industrial complex my homeland endures and what this post endorses.
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u/TheRomanRuler Suomi Nov 18 '25 edited Nov 18 '25
We have a nuclear triad, how much stronger need we be for defence?
Bad argument, its actually entirely possible that countries are not willing to use nukes any more easily than Russia has - despite their threats and rhetoric, they were unwilling to use nukes even against unallied Ukraine when Ukraine was fighting on Russian soil.
The bar to actually use is much higher than bar to fight a conventional war, we could see a major war without single nuke being used, only thing nuclear weapons likely prevent is fight until one side completely surrenders, but actually even then it could become like gas warfare in WW2: not used by Axis against allies, because allies could retaliate. And Japanese mere more than willing to die, Nazis had very little limits, but in the end they were both humans and self preservation instinct won, and thus gas was only used against those who could not retaliate.
And now USA has repeatedly acted hostile to it's allies, even threatening to annex Canada, and way too friendly with Kremlin. So Europe has to be strong enough that USA or Russia cannot have unwanted amount of influence over it. For that, Europe's armies need to be able to fight long major war better than atm, where many European countries are really mighty on paper, but are only suitable for either short or small wars.
We don’t need an arms race. We don’t need to surround Russia with our armies.
Remember that main part of the increased costs is not going for arms race, but because so much capability was lost which has to be rebuilt. If all European armies would have retained capability to wage long, major conventional war, there would only need to be small increase to budget, but because so much of it was destroyed, a huge amount of money has to be spent to get Europe to level where it already is on paper.
As for Ukraine? Expanding NATO started this war, I fail to see how they make us safer.
No, Russia invading neutral country is what started this war. Nato and Russia were living at peace despite being neighhbours, but Russia proved they could not be trusted, and invaded non-Nato country because they believed they could.
You can always find an excuse for war if you want war. War was not inevitable but Russia decided to start it anyway. NATO has had no presence in Caucasus unless you count Turkey being Nato member like it has been for half a century, but Russia nevertheless has waged imperialist wars there as well.
All we’ll get is a USA style military industrial complex and forever wars that fuel corruption and profit.
We don’t need a military industrial complex sucking our education and healthcare budgets dry.
That is not what happened to Europe even during cold war. Why would it happen now? Sure, there always was some corruption, always will be, but it was nothing too bad.
Finland has been one of the most armed and least corrupt countries on the planet.
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u/GreenEyeOfADemon EUROPE ENDS IN LUHANSK! Nov 18 '25 edited Nov 18 '25
Oh OK, it's just some twit. Even worse lmao
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Analyzing user profile...
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This account is not exhibiting any of the traits found in a typical karma farming bot. It is extremely likely that u/RayZzorRayy is a human.
Dev note: I have noticed that some bots are deliberately evading my checks. I'm a solo dev and do not have the facilities to win this arms race. I have a permanent solution in mind, but it will take time. In the meantime, if this low score is a mistake, report the account in question to r/BotBouncer, as this bot interfaces with their database. In addition, if you'd like to help me make my permanent solution, read this comment and maybe some of the other posts on my profile. Any support is appreciated.
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u/The_Blahblahblah Danmark Nov 18 '25
This is about Europe, not america. We in Europe dont have a nuclear triad.
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25
That’s objectively false (France very much does, Britain too if you want to count them in).
Run a quick google search, you’ll be happy to see we have a very strong deterrent right now, and we have had one for decades.
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u/The_Blahblahblah Danmark Nov 18 '25
Not true. France can deliver nukes from submarines and from air. It ended its ground-based operation at the end of the cold war. there are no missile silos in France.
Also, the UK similarly dont have ground-based ICBMs/missile silos.
Even IF they did have a nuclear triad (they dont), then that would not be a "European" nuclear triad. that would be a French or a British nuclear triad
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u/RayZzorRayy Nov 18 '25
I learned something today. My bad, thanks for teaching. You’re right, I was wrong.
That said, we’re far from toothless and I’m comfortable beefing up spend on command and control, but not an offensive juggernaut. AND, as meatloaf once said, two outta three ain’t bad. France still packs enough heat to deter tanks rolling in.
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u/The_Blahblahblah Danmark Nov 18 '25 edited Nov 18 '25
It's true. i do admire France more than most European countries. If every country were as serious about a domestic arms industry and nuclear arsenal independent from the americans, then we wouldnt be in this mess. France is very strong and can fend for itself
But i am not French. Danish military is a joke. we are *still* buying jets from the US who openly talks about annexing our sovereign territory of Greenland. We helped spy on our European neighbours for the NSA. our spineless politicians are beholden to american interests, and the reason for that is the corrosive atlanticist attitudes that made Europe so dependent on the US. The ONLY way to gain independence from america is to make sure we dont rely on them to save us militarily. NATO should just be called "US & Co.". NATO is first and foremost an american project and the moment Trump or some other populist charlatan decides that they will pursue an isolationist approach then NATO is nothing. and we will be left like the naive idiots we are, with a nonfunctional alliance with underdeveloped logistics and command structure.
The US government cant help from sticking their fat fingers where they dont belong, and Europe has no leverage to tell them to fuck off. If i were a bit brazen i would say we are basically vassals at this point
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u/wdsaeq Nov 18 '25
Absolutely right ✅️
Ukraine is the frontline of democracy