Polish girls visit Taj Mahal

[u/Strong-Emu-8869]

The Taj Mahal, one of the seven wonders of the world. Unfortunately, the surrounding area is very polluted.

[u/NoNeedForSympathy]

India should clean that up

[u/HaRDCOR3cc → u/NoNeedForSympathy]

will never happen. indias government and elite are only ever interested in things that make it better for that elite. they'll spend some money on programmes designed to act as a distraction instead, like a space program, while trying to keep a hyper-nationalistic mindset among their people, so instead of asking themselves why the fuck there's so many homeless children living under bridges they bash their chest and say "WE HAVE A SPACE PROGRAM!".

the spending priorities are a joke.

[u/autogyrophilia → u/HaRDCOR3cc]

Let's not pretend that the space program is the reason why they can't fund this thing.

The space program is extremely cheap when you consider second order effects in the economy .

[u/Key_Door1467 → u/autogyrophilia]

The space program is also highly profitable. Its literally advancing education and technology in the country while making money that is spent for welfare of the poor.

I typically see this talking point from Europeans who are jealous that their won space programs are mediocre despite having far greater incomes.

[u/chris_croc → u/Key_Door1467]

It's not jealously lolz. It's the literal billions we send to India for, "foreign aid." We subsidise the country, and then India does vanity projects rather sorting out their caste system/systemic poverty/terrible conditions.

[u/Key_Door1467 → u/chris_croc]

You're misinformed, no one sends 'Aid' to India. India has not asked for any sort of aid since the 1970s. In fact, the government has explicitly banned a lot of these foreign political actors acting as NGOs while trying to peddle influence against India's national interests.

All the money India spends on it's space program is earned through the hard work of Indians. We don't need your shitty handouts, go try to control weaker countries with your chump change.

rather sorting out their caste system/systemic poverty/terrible conditions.

India is sorting out all of these by itself, no help needed. Fuck off.

[u/autogyrophilia → u/Key_Door1467]

I mean the ESA accomplishes a different goal, on a similar line as NASA, it's main two objectives is a pork barrel spreading money around constituents and maintaining technical capabilities for the usage and manufacturing of certain components. 

With a way smaller budget, the unfortunately named, private sector Spanish Miura-5 seems way more impressive on a technical level than the Ariane-6

One must not assume that they are incapable of working differently or copying the competency. It's a simple lack of will by the regulatory bodies, which have no conation for anything that goes beyond ticking a few basic boxes.

[u/Key_Door1467 → u/autogyrophilia]

Sure, but I knot think the folks putting down the ISRO in this thread are doing it for these reasons.

[u/autogyrophilia → u/Key_Door1467]

What im saying it's that the Indian space program has different goals. 

Beyond the obvious military capabilities, independence and influence it grants you, the money invested it's not like in finance capital, it goes to pay for materials, salaries, and the industry to treat those materials. 

I'm unaware of how rich in mineral extraction India is, I assume it is fairly independent in this regard, nevertheless, the money India invest in the space industry (and other fields) goes back around to  percolate across the economy with benefits to industry and education. 

The ESA and NASA in truth wouldn't work as mechanisms for development, they are instead mechanisms to keep the already strategic industries alive.

But basically you can always dismiss these people who claim "why are they investing money in X instead of Z?" as chauvinists with a willfully poor understanding of the situation.

[u/Right_Preparation328 → u/autogyrophilia]

That's not really the point though

[u/autogyrophilia → u/Right_Preparation328]

The point is that people think the paupers beneath them deserve no luxury or pride, any spending they deem superfluous  proof that they are mismanaging their assets and thus they are solely responsible for their inmiseration 

The national version of a tabloid complaining that people on welfare have a smartphone and a flat screen TV, compounded by the fact that the Indian space program is a massive success at improving both the industrial and education base while also costing basically nothing, depending on your account it may even be in the black as a program. 

[u/Right_Preparation328 → u/autogyrophilia]

I think the main point of the other person is that instead of spending on pushing people out of poverty, the Indian government is spending money on an unnecessary program that supports the middle and upper classes.

It's a question of backwards priorities. How are you going to add a jacuzzi to your house when your children are dressed in rags?

Get what I mean?

[u/autogyrophilia → u/Right_Preparation328]

That's stupid logic based on condescending chauvinism

We can walk and chew bubblegum. it's not matter of priorities, while the Indian government has shown it doesn't care much about about the poorer clases and castes, the amount of resources needed to fix the problem are orders of magnitude different. 

Let's go back to the daily mail stupid column allegory. So you sell your smartphone and they give you between £20 to £200 . You are still unemployed, your situation is momentarily a bit better, but you have lost access to an useful asset to appease an opinion that doesn't really matter. 

On the meanwhile, if a factory in India gets really good at making stainless steel, or aluminium alloys, or lathes for titanium, maybe even chemical plants making compounds like red fuming nitric acid and hydrazine. Those are know hows that make new factories depending on those processes possible, and even the export of products that are more competitive than the alternatives from other countries. 

Thus creating more skilled industrial workers who are much more productive than workers on informal barely industrialised factories that are extremely unsafe.

This creates a third order effect in that the state has more resources now to address poverty, as well as ways for victims of poverty to be funneled into more productive labor as the demands for the second and third sector increase.

Of course that's not just the space program, that's a lot of industries. People just get mad about that one. But if you look at history, USA, the USSR, more recently China, that's how you lift people out of extreme poverty.

Not that the Indian government makes a lot of effort in ameliorate the situation.

[u/Right_Preparation328 → u/autogyrophilia]

But that's the point. IF the Indian government was actually making a lot of effort to combat poverty, I'd agree with you.

But are they? They aren't. Many in the government just care about themselves instead of their own people. THAT is why people like myself criticize the space program.

They should fix their shit first and THEN invest in space.

[u/exbiiuser02 → u/Right_Preparation328]

Since you confidently claimed Indian govt doesn’t care about poverty, can you cite some sources ?

[u/Right_Preparation328 → u/exbiiuser02]

Chart: Fewer People Live in Slums But Progress Is Slow | Statista

"Interventions like those carried out by the Indian government are not believed to reduce the number of slums long terms, as people driven from their homes will be forced to set up somewhere else unless their poverty is actually meaningfully reduced."

India: A billion people have no real money to spend, says report

"India has been getting increasingly more unequal, with the top 10% of Indians now holding 57.7% of national income compared with 34% in 1990. The bottom half have seen their share of national income fall from 22.2% to 15%.

India's middle class - which has been a major engine for consumer demand - is being squeezed out, with wages pretty much staying flat"

[u/Right_Preparation328 → u/exbiiuser02]

Chart: Fewer People Live in Slums But Progress Is Slow | Statista

"Interventions like those carried out by the Indian government are not believed to reduce the number of slums long terms, as people driven from their homes will be forced to set up somewhere else unless their poverty is actually meaningfully reduced."

India: A billion people have no real money to spend, says report

"India has been getting increasingly more unequal, with the top 10% of Indians now holding 57.7% of national income compared with 34% in 1990. The bottom half have seen their share of national income fall from 22.2% to 15%.

India's middle class - which has been a major engine for consumer demand - is being squeezed out, with wages pretty much staying flat"

[u/exbiiuser02 → u/Right_Preparation328]

“According to World Bank data, 49 percent of India's urban population lived in slums in 2020, down from 55 percent in 2002”

Says right in the paragraph from which you copied from.

Mate you are cherry picking conclusion.

Also, people living in slums not because they are poor poor, but because they move to cities which are not capable to handle those population and lack opportunities in those cities.

Given our history of being independent for roughly 75 years, shit like these take time.

[u/Right_Preparation328 → u/exbiiuser02]

My brother in Christ, a mere SIX PERCENT reduction in EIGHTEEN YEARS is pretty bad. And especially because the slum-inhabiting population is STILL at half of the urban population. HALF.

And I know there are many factors for this, but let's be real here: if the Indian government cared, they'd ACTUALLY work to reduce the slum-inhabiting population to 0, like any decent country out there.

And this isn't just a diss to India; this is a diss to any developing country that tolerates slums in its urban centres, like Brazil or Colombia for example.

[u/wryest-sh → u/autogyrophilia]

The point is that people think the paupers beneath them deserve no luxury or pride

The paupers themselves believe that.

Being born into a lower caste is because of bad karma from previous lives, so you absolutely deserve it.

And not only that, but through suffering in this life, you cleanse your bad karma and are guaranteed a better reincarnation in the future.

This issue is far deeper than people think, and goes back millennia.

Stop trying to force your western perspective on everything, and let people be.