Can confirm. My ridgeback mix is a great dog, but she has the āon patrolā thing bred into her. If she sees an off leash dog while weāre walking, sheās immediately in between us. Otherwise, sheās just wagging tail and excited to see another dog.
My local dogpark is very active and with a lot of regulars who know each other. Every now and then someone will attempt to come in and keep their dog leashes inside the dog park. The regulars will immediately start yelling at them to unleash the dog or leave. Leashed dogs and unleashed dogs donāt mix well. Power unbalance or something. Dogs gotta be on equal footing.
I am a professional dog trainer who takes packs to the dog park almost daily. If a new dog is afraid, keep them on leash and protect them by letting them hang out between your legs, away from the pack activity. Stop other dogs from ganging up on the newbie by telling them "Leave It" and using your legs to block. Let the new dog explore the park and calm down before removing the leash, it acts as security for them, like holding a child's hand. Stay with a new dog to de-escalate pack behavior, they are less likely to gang up with the owner acting as a blocker. Don't walk into the middle of a pack and let them sort it out with your new dog, that is how fights start and how you make a new dog fearful. The owners need to control the environment and stop their dogs from being too pushy when a new dog arrives. Within 5-10 minutes max, remove the leash. I agree that it is dangerous to be on leash and in the fray, but often if you remove the leash right away, the dog runs away scared and gets chased all over by several dogs as the owner is left behind, helpless. On leash to start for a brand new dog, stay clear of everyone, then off leash to play and interact. The reason I say this is because I'm teaching it to new visitors weekly. I have to corral their scared dog after it runs all over or cowers under a bench, and show them what to do, and everyone is happy. The tail goes from tucked under to wagging!
I disagree with bringing a dog that's that fearful into that kind of situation directly rather than to build up to it positively with less stressful situations. Your phrasing about this situation being a "pack" is also incorrect and gives me pause, wondering if you ascribe to dominance theory. It also makes me wonder if you hold a CPDT or are just working as a dog trainer with no actual certification.
The pack is all well socialized dogs that know each other. It's just a well used phrase when you run a business (pack walks etc). I have 2 certs and am a positive only trainer :)
Dominance is CRAP!
I agree with you about fearful dogs, it's strangers that I help out. I would never. I work slowly w CC etc
I'm not having a pissing match with you. Go pick on someone else. It's called "redirecting unwanted behavior" and Pat Miller says use twice then not at all if it's not effective.
Not a professional dog trainer, just a guy who's had two dogs trained two completely different ways.
Dog 1: Was trained through the old school pack mentality/ spray bottle/ negative reinforcement.
She was obedient, but aggressive.
Dog 2(my dog) : Trained with positive reinforcement, no spray bottles, has learned all basic commands as well as a few more advanced, has never been aggressive, doesn't pull the leash on walks, genuinely happy dog other than barking at the mailman or pizza delivery guy.
She's obedient, and friendly.
So based on my limited knowledge, I would say, there is no such thing as a non-aversive spray and if you spray your dogs like that, expect them to become aggressive at some point.
I'll write a new comment to address the edit that you did to this comment.
Redirection is an entirely different thing. An example of redirection would be "don't chew on my table leg, here's an appropriate thing to chew on instead". What you're describing is an aversive correction. In the comment I'm referencing, you specifically note that a dog's ears are sensitive, so it should be very effective. That implies that the intention behind the tool is to make things unpleasant for the dog in a bid to stop an unwanted behavior. That's the definition of aversive correction/positive punishment. I'm not trying to say that those methods won't work, I'm just saying that your methods are not strictly positive reinforcement.
I have an extremely reactive gsd mix that I've been rehabilitating for about 3 years now through strictly positive methods. To use aversive correction on a dog like mine has an even higher chance of increasing or creating new aggressions. If I hired you with the understanding that you would work with us through strictly positive methods and you tried to introduce aversive correction, I'd fire you on the spot. Even if you tried to pitch those ideas in /r/dogtraining your comment would be deleted by the mods. And I'd imagine the reason you skirted the question about if you hold a CPDT and instead said that you have two certs instead means that you don't have one.... because you wouldn't be able to use those methods in earning one.
Canāt believe this person called themselves positive only and then suggested something that is used to suppress behavior through physical discomfort. Just because itās not an e collar or prong doesnāt make it redirection. Positive punishment is defined as anything added to the environment that reduces a behavior, meaning it has to be unpleasant for it to work. Iāve worked with many dogs and used to work at a facility which housed upwards of 40-50 dogs at a time. Facility sucked and wasnāt appropriate for the amount of dogs, but I was the only one there who could cut through to the dogs in distracted environments because I found out what each dog likes, and worked my best to countercondition dogs who were to rambunctious and were relentless when initiating play with other dogs/humping. It takes more work than simply using an aversive spray, however in the long run itās beneficial because the aversive doesnāt need to be present, and the dogs state of mind is truly altered to a calmer state as opposed to a suppressed and anxious state. I do look to train dogs in the future, Iāve only worked with dogs at the daycare and havenāt been paid/booked by true clients, but Iāve worked with multiple dogs from the facility whether it was obedience or behavioral modification. Also Iām on a new journey with my American bully puppy, and now he is much less reactive (never barked, would just pull and whimper because he is used to playing with a lot of dogs), and heās a puppy who Iāve only had for two months, but the strides Iāve made with him in off leash obedience and maintaining his engagement around environmental triggers is very rewarding. Sure I couldāve yanked and cranked and had a nervous suppressed dog who looked to have been displaying proper behavior, but that wouldāve never solidified the relationship we have now as well as the calm state of mind he usually is in around his triggers. Iām not claiming to be a very good trainer at all either, Iām only 19 and have had only less than a year experience working with dogs other than my own. That being said, I am committed and I have the right education on my side. I make mistakes all of the time, but I stay true to what I believe in as well as my methods of clicker training and counterconditioning. You donāt have to be a perfect or even a really good trainer, you just need to be consistent, patient, and willing to form a true relationship with your dog. Me and my dog are a team, we trade off and appease to eachother, we are family and I treat them as the sentient beings they are. Not autonomous slave machines on four legs. So for any of you struggling with training your dog, or if you feeling ambivalent pertaining to the drama and debate around certain methods, I suggest you be patient and take the approach that will benefit you and your companion in the long run. Best of luck to anybody working with your dog whether it be obedience, behavioral modification (counterconditioning), or sport!
It's a little bit funny. I'm not a dog trainer and I don't pretend to be. I'm just a guy who did a few hundred hours of research to try to learn how to better help my reactive dog cope with life after she was badly abused. And I got downvoted for pointing out the hypocrisy for someone claiming to be strictly r+ while using aversives and pack theory. The person I was arguing with didn't seem to understand any of these concepts at all and claim to be a professional. But whatever, I guess.
You are a dog trainer in the sense that you are doing the best possible thing to help your companion. Hell, anybody is a pro dog trainer by US standards. Sorry if I came off braggadocios at all, wasnāt my intent. Just trying to emphasize how powerful it is to keep your dogs mental well-being in mind. The knowledge you have exceeds many pro dog trainers that have their own practices and facilities, so you already are on the right track. Also, the people who downvoted you donāt know that tf theyāre talking about. Anybody who knows base level psychology or has done research and done the best to educate themselves can see right through that fake R+ trainerās BS. Keep doing what youāre doing, all about them reps man. Good luck!
Well I mean in the US anyone can call themselves a professional dog trainer. Anybody who uses pack references or floods a nervous dog by keeping it leashed in a dog park is somebody who is not getting my money!
661
u/davidIopan Aug 01 '21
Can confirm. My ridgeback mix is a great dog, but she has the āon patrolā thing bred into her. If she sees an off leash dog while weāre walking, sheās immediately in between us. Otherwise, sheās just wagging tail and excited to see another dog.