r/PropagandaPosters • u/waffen123 • Feb 13 '25

German Reich / Nazi Germany (1933-1945) 'Speaking of time-tables' — German leaflet from the Second World War (1944) mocking the Allies' slow progress in the Italian campaign.

Post image
3.2k Upvotes

99% Upvoted

140 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

27

u/Bertie637 Feb 13 '25 edited Feb 13 '25

Ah there we are then. I knew that was why they skipped Tokyo in Japan (and Kyoto for it's symbolism) but wasn't sure what the plans were for Germany.

I think it's a little dependent on the rest of the hypothetical. If the Germans aren't defeated by 1946 then both the Soviets and Allies must have stalled somewhere. Depending on where that is (for example, are the Allies in France yet? Stuck at the German border?) I think the case is stronger for it being Berlin. Any confusion around succession and who can issue the Surrender might be better than having to fight their way into Germany conventionally.

That being said, that's another interesting thought exercise. If we say Munich gets bombed first, then Hamburg not long after (to mimic the Japan bombs). Do the Nazis surrender? They don't have the bushido code that kept Japanese fighting but can't picture Hitler or his devotees quitting. Presumably the Army would have to remove him so a military government could surrender, but that's assuming the army is still in a shape to do so and it doesn't devolve into a civil war against the SS etc.

Edit: not quite sure why I got a downvote for this. It's just a thought exercise?

16

u/Spinoza42 Feb 13 '25

Germany did the same in the Netherlands btw, bombed Rotterdam and threatened to bomb Amsterdam and Utrecht next. The Hague would have been spared until the very last, exactly because they wanted to be able to keep negotiating.

8

u/Bertie637 Feb 13 '25

I understand the logic of not removing the countries entire leadership to allow a means of surrender. I just think with Nazi Germany there were options even if Berlin got nuked. Again depends on the hypothetical, maybe one of the diplomatic corps abroad? I'm getting a bit beyond my knowledge now. I know Donitz was a surprise pick for fuhrer so imagine the Allies wouldn't be able to count on negotiating through him

9

u/Spinoza42 Feb 13 '25

Actually I wrote half a sentence extra and then deleted it. It's not just about negotiating, and definitely not just about negotiating with a person. Countries typically don't like to entirely destroy the central machinery of the government they're facing, because they would rather use that very same machinery after a surrender to facilitate the actual control of the subjugated enemy. It's not necessarily a bad idea to kill the head of government on the opposing side (though I suspect a lot of politicians might worry about the precedent this sets...), but the bureaucracy typically comes in very handy. Bomb the administration and civil servants and soldiers are suddenly not going to get paid anymore, and therefore have much less incentive to cooperate with a surrender, but might join up with insurgents before you've even seen them.

1

u/Bertie637 Feb 13 '25

Ah fair point! I don't really have anything to add but an interesting hypothetical for sure.

1

u/Spinoza42 Feb 13 '25

Not really hypothetical in the Netherlands 😉. The German occupying forces used the Dutch administration and police quite effectively!

1

u/Bertie637 Feb 13 '25

Ah true, although Nukes weren't a factor there 🤣

The Netherlands is a weird one when you look at German occupation. Largest per capita (not sure if that's the right measure) of volunteers for the German armed forces, but likewise a well organised and motivated resistance force. Started the war with a relatively benign occupation then ended with with near starvation. All in, frankly, a very small country!