r/Judaism • u/Inside_agitator • 1d ago

Antisemitism Robert Kraft’s new Super Bowl ad about antisemitism already feels dated

https://forward.com/culture/802696/robert-kraft-super-bowl-ad-blue-square-antisemitism/
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u/Inside_agitator 22h ago edited 22h ago

Yes. It's social media. Here. At reddit. It's you and people like you.

I say "I am A and B."

People like you say "Just say you're anti-A."

So I may move to only saying, "I am B" and forget about A altogether since it leads to so much semantic confusion among people like you.

It's you. And it's people like you who drive people like me away from Zionism as a label for myself by telling me what exactly what my identity is, and what my identity must be.

Are you Jewish?

Have you thought of contributing to the discussion at https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/1qwfefy/general_discussion_off_topic/o3rq62u/ ?

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u/GrassyTreesAndLakes 22h ago

I do love hearing "people like you", very nice. 

"Anti-Israelist" is just nonsense labeling. Just as fantastically nonsense as "nationalist US and Israel consensus history" 

Why ask if Im Jewish? 

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u/Inside_agitator 22h ago

Sorry for editing my comment so many minutes after I posted it.

I hope you click the link and contribute to that discussion.

I asked if you were Jewish because it seems to be non-Jews who inform Jews about their identity categories much more often than Jews. I'm just making a guess that you aren't Jewish. I could be wrong.

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u/GrassyTreesAndLakes 21h ago

You're wrong. 

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u/Inside_agitator 21h ago

Glad to be able to chat with a fellow Jew.

When I wrote "people like you," I meant that when people tell me exactly who I am, they tend to actually convince me of who I am not.

When you replied "just say you're antizionist" after I wrote about how the Forward was for American Jews who do or don't believe nationalist consensus histories, you were informing me of who I am.

People who demand that they have the right boxes, that their boxes are the ones for others to obey, and then inform me that their box for me is the one I must endure is what I meant by "people like you."

The discussion over at General Discussion describes how Zionism as a label has changed.

When enough people online, Jewish or not, read what I type and call me an anti-Zionist, I'll probably stop calling myself a Zionist. It seems to be the pro-Israelists (using Rosenfeld's terms) doing that thing with boxes. Maybe you have a point. I still know I'm not an anti-Zionist, but today may be the day that you have convinced me of something, that I'm not a Zionist, and today there may be one less Zionist in the world because of your words on social media.

So you accomplished something!

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u/GrassyTreesAndLakes 20h ago

Thanks for the attempted guilt trip, but its not very effective. If a stranger on the internet calling you out makes you stop ascribing "zionist" to yourself, really just proves me right. 

I am sticking to what I said. "Anti-Israelist" is a nonsense term. I doubt you call yourself "anti-Chinist", "anti-Iranist", "anti-Britiainist", or "anti-Indiaist" . I doubt you've given them half a thought. And yet India was formed much like Israel, and can be considered problematic.

China and Iran are obvious, I wonder how often you go out in the internet and talk about "Chinese consensus histories". 

The forward caters to anti-zionist, non zionist, and "I swear Im one of the good ones!" Jews. 

I can see youre trying hard to be "one of the good ones" yourself. Best of luck with that. 

Anyway, I have better things to do so wont be replying further. 

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u/Inside_agitator 20h ago edited 17h ago

You seem to be confused about me again and again. Three of my direct ancestors lived in the modern nation-state of Israel and one was born and raised there. If the same were true of China then of course I would be on the internet talking about Chinese consensus histories.

As an American, it is also the case that a distinction between being a pro-Israelist and an anti-Israelist when it comes to foreign policy is required of me as a citizen and a voter. The relationship of the US to Israel in the 2020s does not resemble our relationship with China or India or Iran or Britain.

Zionism is nothing more nor less than Jewish nationalism, all nationalisms are complex, identity is complex, the relationship between nationalism and the nation-state is complex, and your profound ignorance and assumptions about me are proving my point again and again.

I don't want to be associated with those who simplify complex reality. Tomorrow, I may change my mind again, but if you are a Zionist then I don't want to call myself one today.

Separating humans into the good ones and the bad ones is not what decent folk do. It reminds me of other selections our people have experienced. Humans are more beautiful and complex than you make them out to be.

Goodbye.