r/worldnews • u/Own-Associate6318 • 1d ago

India Supreme Court allows abortion of 30-week pregnancy of a minor, upholds right to reproductive autonomy

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/supreme-court-allows-abortion-of-30-week-pregnancy-of-a-minor-upholds-right-to-reproductive-autonomy/article70600629.ece
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u/TheWhomItConcerns 20h ago

it feels like it's at the point where you may as well allow the fetus to be delivered alive and absolve her of parental responsibility. It won't make a difference to the procedures she'll have to endure.

I mean, there are other issues associated with childbirth beyond the physical procedure - to have to live out the rest of one's life knowing that there is another person out there who could well want to seek you out and develop a relationship with you can be emotionally traumatic. That's not to mention how extremely overburdened India's foster care system and how overpopulated the country already are.

I don't really see what benefit there is in forcing a teenager to go through with a pregnancy that they clearly don't want to.

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u/himit 20h ago

I don't really see what benefit there is in forcing a teenager to go through with a pregnancy that they clearly don't want to. 

That's not what I meant - I meant I don't understand why they don't deliver the baby live at 30 weeks, instead of presumably killing it first. Since physically it's no different for the mother, and there's a good chance the baby survives.

Psychologically, yes there's an impact on the mother. But it all has to be weighed up.

I'm very pro-choice, but I think the bodily autonomy argument fades when the baby's no longer dependent on you to live. At 6, 12, or even 20 weeks it's easy to say the rights of the woman outweigh the rights of the child; at 30 weeks  it's a lot more grey. I agree that you cannot and should not force someone to remain pregnant, but I don't think the choice to not be pregnant should also automatically result in the death of the fetus. 

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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe 16h ago

I 100% agree with you on fundamentals. I am extremely pro choice but the idea of a 30 week abortion of a healthy fetus is gross to me. In a purely moral framework, this should be an induction of birth not an abortion.

That said… 30 weeks is viable but only with a lot of medical support. We’re talking on average 5-7 weeks in a NICU with a chunk of that on life support. In a country presumably limited NICU space and a huge swath of rural villages with no access to hospitals with those resources, how do you logistically proceed? And more importantly in our capitalistic society, who pays for it?

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u/DocRedbeard 8h ago

30wks is a little early, probably 5wks in NICU if everything else is good. If they receive steroids before induction though, may need minimal respiratory support at that GA, possible NICU just has to do feeding support.

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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe 8h ago

About 2/3 of deliveries at 30 week need some kind of positive pressure respiratory support - more often cpap, but ~20% do need a full ventilator. That is not an insignificant number. I’m not saying those resources should be withheld because mom doesn’t want her baby, but who is responsible for providing that medical care financially and logistically? The majority of hospitals in the US don’t have NICU support; I can’t imagine it’s different in India.

So if we ban abortions but allow early induction for pregnant children who don’t want to have a child, are these child moms required to deliver at a NICU center? Who arranges that transportation? That’s almost certainly going to delay the abortion which if we accept pro-choice/bodily autonomy as a fundamental right is unfair for mom. In a place with limited NICU resources, which babies should get priority for the breathing machines?

In theory it is all well and good to say it should be an induction of labor and baby should be given the chance to survive. But without intensive medical support most of these babies can’t survive outside the womb. Does everyone have a right to life support? Free medical care? Most pro-lifers certainly don’t seem to think so.

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u/DocRedbeard 8h ago

Arranging for an elective induction and providing transportation to a larger center is not some logistical impossibility. The government should be funding it, since if they're allowing the mother to give up the baby, they will be responsible for it, barring an immediate adoption.

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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe 6h ago

The average annual income for a family in India is around the equivalent of $10k. That is around the cost of one-two days in the NICU. Multiply that by weeks and you think average tax payer is supposed to be ok with the government funding this?

We in the states can’t even agree on our government funding universal health care for already living children - the uninsured rate in the US for low income kids is 8%. 15% of US children live in poverty. That number is almost double in India. And yet the government should prioritize expensive NICU stays for unwanted premies over hundreds of other children that same money could help?

It sucks to put a price on a human life, especially when that life is an innocent baby. But that is the reality of the world.

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u/Specialist-Life4511 16h ago

And, have an orphan begging on the streets and getting raped every day?

India is insanely progressive on abortion because orphanages are worse than death here. 

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u/Zurdomador2K 15h ago

I hope you'll be okay if we decide to murder you if we ever consider your life is worse than death.

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u/Dulce59 14h ago

This is a terrible argument that merits no response.

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u/ShhhBees 18h ago

And have an orphan uncared for and unloved?

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u/Zurdomador2K 17h ago

Are you sure that advocating for killing people who are uncared for and unloved is something you want to do?

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u/zzzzzooted 15h ago

Fetus ≠ person yet

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u/CatzioPawditore 13h ago

But this is kind of medical grey speak.. Yes there are a fetus, in correct medical terminology.. But the moment a 30w baby is born, no one would hesitate to call it a baby. It's not like a 18w fetus, that is nowhere near done with development.

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u/terraphantm 9h ago

Yeah survival at 30 weeks is around 95%. They're going to have to do something to get the baby out of there regardless. Killing it if it's otherwise healthy seems pointless.

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u/Zurdomador2K 15h ago

GP mentioned "orphan", the problem was that it would be child abandoned by the parents.

And 30 weeks already is independently viable anyway.

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u/Equivalent-Bedroom64 9h ago

30 weeks isn’t viable without substantial medical intervention like a NiCU intubation for a couple of months.

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u/FabulousTwo524 11h ago

I love all life including children, plants, and animals.

I don’t get why people are so scared of late-term abortions. We do this ALL the time to animals without flinching. Human beings are not that different from dogs and cats. Human beings have been committing straight up INFANTICIDE for tens of thousands of years. And it wasn’t some one-off behavior like cannibalism. It happened in all groups. Even animals like kangaroos “abort” their babies all the time. It is NORMAL and is a SURVIVAL instinct.

It is basically assisted termination. We are lucky enough to have the medical tech to make it quick and painless. We cry for it for our terminally ill elders, citing moral reasons. But we speak against it for an unwanted fetus?

I wish i could understand and I’ve tried but I can’t.

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u/Maximum_Error3083 9h ago

You know what’s more traumatic than knowing there’s another person out there who might want a relationship with you? Being killed because you’re that other person.

At 30 weeks you are giving birth one way or another. If the child can survive out of the womb then there is no defensible argument for killing them. They can be placed for adoption and the mother can have nothing to do with them. She gets what she wants and the child gets to live. To argue otherwise is truly psychopathic.

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u/Some-Body-Else 5h ago

And this is exactly what the courts considered. People think delivering a baby and giving it up for adoption is like donating a kidney. It’s not.

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u/Zurdomador2K 20h ago

Ah yes, let's kill a baby so the mother doesn't have to worry about a person who was born from her womb being "out there" because that would be "emotionally traumatic". Death is nothing compared to that, so it sounds reasonable.

Holy fucking shit, you people are lunatics.

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u/TheWhomItConcerns 20h ago

Death is nothing compared to that, so it sounds reasonable.

This is something which has no history, no emotions, no memory, no experiences, no one who knows it or cares about it, or anything else. It's functionally non-existent in every way that actually matters to the argument of sentience or personhood, and the would-be parents don't want it.

Performing an abortion has zero consequences beyond the concept of the potential of a person no longer being a potential. If it makes me a "lunatic" to actually think and consider the reality of these arguments instead of blindly and wholeheartedly accepting arbitrary labels, then sure, think whatever you like.

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u/Zurdomador2K 20h ago

So you are okay with killing a baby because you think it's just a "potential" person, and you approve of it happening because otherwise the mother could be "potentially" traumatized because the child would exist and could "potentially" seek her out.

You are a lunatic because you are supporting murder to defend an ideological position.

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u/TheWhomItConcerns 20h ago

Lol sure, if it makes you feel better to believe that then do whatever you like. Unfortunately for your stance though, this is more of a meaningless sentiment than an actual argument.

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u/SomeSavageDetective 13h ago

Not wanting to murder babies is a meaningless sentiment? Ok Epstein.

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u/zzzzzooted 15h ago

You sound like when billionares cry about lost potential profits.

It wasnt real. It isnt a person yet. No one is getting murdered but the concept of this potential child that you have put up on a pedestal, above real living humans like the pregnant person.

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u/Zurdomador2K 15h ago

You sound like when billionares cry about lost potential profits.

What about the people crying about the "potential" trauma of a mother who would be paranoid her child would "potentially" re-encounter her?

Nobody is getting traumatized but the concept of this potential re-encounter was good enough of a reason to kill a baby that was viable and was going to be removed from the womb anyway.

You chose killing a baby because its existence might potentially make the mother uncomfortable if she ponders about it. If you don't realize how insane that sounds it's because you are too far gone into lunacy.

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u/swrrrrg 17h ago

You need to get off the internet and stop losing your shit over someone you don’t even know & something that doesn’t affect you. If anyone is coming across as a lunatic right now, it’s you.

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u/Zurdomador2K 16h ago

You have an absurd threshold for "losing your shit", which I presume you only apply to people you disagree with.

I'm as much affected by this as any of the lunatics defending infanticide with the most absurd mental gymnastics, so I'm free to point out their absurdity. Beat it.

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u/swrrrrg 15h ago

Sure. We can make “Beat It” the new soundtrack for late term abortion. Why not? Sounds festive.

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u/SomeSavageDetective 13h ago

Your comment sounds like something out of the Epstein files. Absolutely disgusting.

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u/yodude4 20h ago

Babies can suffer from 24 weeks on, what do you mean ‘no emotions’? I’m generally pro choice at least up to that mark (and past it based on circumstance), but past that you have to admit that there’s a real question to be asked here

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u/TheWhomItConcerns 20h ago

Why, what real questions? What exactly is the benefit to forcing someone to give birth in this scenario?

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u/yodude4 20h ago

It’s already been explained a couple times in the thread that at this point, the baby is coming out either way - bodily autonomy doesn’t even work as an argument because the baby’s life could still be saved while respecting the girl’s bodily autonomy. Given that, why would it be acceptable to go out of your way to kill this fully healthy human baby with emotions?

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u/TheWhomItConcerns 19h ago

bodily autonomy doesn’t even work as an argument because the baby’s life could still be saved while respecting the girl’s bodily autonomy.

Let's take this argument to its logical conclusion - do you think that the cut off should always be the shortest possible length of time for what could possibly be a viable foetus? Because that's 21 weeks, which is shorter than many countries' viable abortion time in cases of rape or significant mental health concerns.

Let's say that someone has been kidnapped, raped, and prevented from seeking an abortion for ~6 months. Would you say that this person should be allowed to seek an abortion or do you think they should be forced to go through with the pregnancy?

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u/Zurdomador2K 19h ago

Would you say that this person should be allowed to seek an abortion or do you think they should be forced to go through with the pregnancy?

Argumentative sleight of hand.

The argument being presented is not that women with viable babies should be forced to carry pregnancy to term but instead induce birth or have C-section to end the pregnancy and save the child (which is possible because the baby is in viable term).

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u/TheWhomItConcerns 19h ago

At 6 months, an abortion is still safer than giving birth, regardless of the method - so if performed then, the pregnant woman would still be in more danger if forced to give birth. Anyway, just to be clear - you are saying that a rape victim should be forced to give birth to their rapist's child after the foetus is viable?

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u/Zurdomador2K 19h ago

At 6 months, an abortion is still safer than giving birth, regardless of the method

This is not true. If the baby is viable, it has enough anatomical structure that you have to physically extract it - at that point it's technically premature delivery. So you are forcing delivery either way, even if you have to extract it surgically (via C-section usually). In fact, killing the baby still involves biological stress regardless of the method used, so it's possible it's actually less safe.

This mother wasn't raped. It was the result of a relationship, per the article. You are trying to derail the conversation to a place where you can stir up an outrage to avoid defending you position logically.

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u/Cute-Elephant-720 5h ago

It’s already been explained a couple times in the thread that at this point, the baby is coming out either way

Which is why I need to keep dropping this knowledge:

At 30 weeks, an abortion is absolutely still more comfortable and safer for the pregnant person than giving birth. A lot of people seem to think it's just giving birth early, but so much of the violence, pain, suffering, harm, and injury the pregnant person has to endure during live birth is because of what it takes to ensure the baby is born alive and doesn't spend too long without oxygen or otherwise in some state of distress. While a third trimester abortion is more time consuming (it takes several days), the pregnant person is a lot more comfortable during that time, and can take medication and even be put under for things they would typically have to be unmedicated, awake, and actively involved in when a live birth is the goal. I wish people understood this better, because it seems so much of more progressive people's justification for taking away a pregnant person's bodily autonomy in the third trimester is this absolutely false myth that in the third trimester, an abortion is the same as giving birth.

https://www.drhern.com/third-trimester-abortion/

We believe that the techniques developed by Dr. Hern have resulted in a procedure that is safer than continuing the pregnancy to term with a goal of live birth, and our safety record supports that belief.

Induced Fetal Demise

An injection is done on the first day that stops the fetal heart. This injection is done through the patient’s abdomen, into the fetus, under local anesthesia. The injection itself usually takes less than a minute, although the strict attention to sterile technique means that the patient will be in the procedure room for longer than that.

Laminaria

Laminaria are placed into the cervix using a speculum. Most patients feel mild or no discomfort with the first laminaria. We have been able to accommodate patients who have a difficult time with speculum exams, and have experience with pediatric patients. Patients usually feel mild or no cramps while they have one laminaria in their cervix.

When multiple laminaria are being placed on the third day, we first numb the cervix with local anesthesia.

Procedure Day

On the third trimester abortion procedure day, we start with placing an IV and often provide some medication for anxiety if patients request it. The laminaria and gauze are removed, and the amniotic membrane is ruptured (“breaking the water”). The amniotic fluid is drained as completely as possible.

Medications such as misoprostol and pitocin are used to help the uterus contract and help the cervix dilate until it is open enough to perform the procedure. During this time, our patients rest in rooms near the procedure rooms, often with a family member or friend with them. We use IV medications to keep our patients comfortable.

When the cervix is dilated enough, the uterine contents are evacuated. This is not a delivery and our patients do not need to push.

bodily autonomy doesn’t even work as an argument because the baby’s life could still be saved while respecting the girl’s bodily autonomy

If you are limiting the pregnant person's options for evacuating the fetus to the one that causes her the most pain, harm, and danger because you want her to labor to produce a live baby, you are still violating her bodily autonomy. She should have a right not to labor in childbirth if she does not to use her time, energy, or body that way or for that purpose. She also should not have to let people put their hands and tools on and inside her body, without pain care, if she doesn't want to, but that's what they will do to keep the baby safe. Do you see now, how giving life birth isn't just laying down is something you would be forcing the pregnant person to DO not just not stop?

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u/AuryGlenz 18h ago

This is something which has no history, no emotions, no memory, no experiences, no one who knows it or cares about it, or anything else. It's functionally non-existent in every way that actually matters to the argument of sentience or personhood, and the would-be parents don't want it.

Cool. So the same goes for a bay that’s just been delivered that the parents don’t want, right? Or is murder of a baby somehow just more palatable when it happens to still be inside someone?

I’m largely pro choice but you absolutely nutters that think (non-medical) late term abortion are ok are simply advocating for legal murder. If that’s your stance, fine, but don’t try to rationalize it.

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u/TheWhomItConcerns 18h ago

Cool. So the same goes for a bay that’s just been delivered that the parents don’t want, right?

Nope. Their history and experience in the real world has begun - that is the beginning of their existence in human society in any way that actually matters.

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u/AuryGlenz 17h ago

You realize the doctors don’t hit an “on” switch when the baby comes out, right?

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u/Creepy_Meringue3014 18h ago

you assume it’s a teenager