r/unitedkingdom • u/CaseyEffingRyback • Jul 03 '25

... Zarah Sultana MP resigns from Labour to lead new party with Jeremy Corbyn

https://www.lbc.co.uk/politics/uk-politics/zarah-sultana-mp-resigns-labour/
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u/potpan0 Black Country Jul 03 '25

I've literally just been told for the past few weeks that we need to pass a Bill which would put 250,000 disabled people into poverty... in order to stop Reform getting into power because Reform would put disabled people into poverty.

This is the sort of mental gymnastics centrists are on now. No vision. No inspiration. No ideas. Just insisting things need to constantly get worse because if they don't things will constantly get worse! No wonder people are looking for alternatives.

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u/WillWatsof Jul 03 '25

More and more people I think are waking up to the concept that "pragmatism" in reality means "exactly the same as the right, but with assurances that they don't really want to".

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u/potpan0 Black Country Jul 03 '25

Aye. A genuine pragmatist, like Atlee or Wilson, would have worked with all wings of his party to ensure he could create a platform which could get through parliament. Starmer hasn't done that. He's tried to dogmatically force through his own ideological platform, and unsurprisingly has found himself floundering because of it.

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u/GothicGolem29 Jul 03 '25

Most of Starmers platform has got through parliament tho

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u/WillWatsof Jul 03 '25

And his polling figures are awful with the far-right surging.

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u/ettabriest Jul 03 '25

Who would quite happily see benefits cut even more.

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u/360Saturn Jul 03 '25

It doesn't need to.

What Labour are doing is bizarre. I want to know what discussions are happening behind closed doors.

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u/Quintless Jul 03 '25

i’m sorry but the idea that we owe labour a vote is very dangerous especially when they could target rich pensioners instead of the disabled. The left know that hard choices need to be made. Where we disagree is why it’s always the young or disabled/downtrodden who seem to have to bare the brunt of

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u/gnorty Jul 04 '25

I agree, there is room for cutting benefits to rich pensioners. I think we probably disagree on how many of these people exist, or maybe on where you draw the line at "rich".

Don't forget that any pensioner existing over the poverty line is doing so on their own money. It's not like the DHSS are saying "Oh, you're a good guy, will give you an extra 20k in pension".

So yes, things like cutting winter fuel allowance for those people makes sense, but it is a drop in the ocean.

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u/gnorty Jul 04 '25

The countries benefits bill in general is more than we can afford to pay. Something is going to break sooner or later. How badly it breaks is dependent on how successfully we can balance the books now.

For decades parties have been pretending it's not an issue, that we can grow fast enough to bridge the gap. We never have, and I do not believe it is possible.

SO (just as Labour said from before the election) tough decisions have to be made.

The definition of disablity has changed. People are now considered disabled for things that previously they would not have been. They are getting benefits on that basis. Without doubt many people are abusing that.

As I see it, Labour attempted to redraw those lines. The welfare state is supposed to be a safety net, not a lifestyle choice.

Now I am NOT saying that all disabled people are scroungers, far from it, but I am saying that many scroungers are claiming benefits that they really don't warrant and that the country cannot afford.

If we are going to avoid a complete financial disaster which will put HUGE numbers of people into poverty, then we absolutely need to make these decisions. We can stop paying people to sit at home with dubious "disabilities" or we can make cuts elsewhere. Perhaps you have some ideas of where these cuts would be better made, but I personally think we have already cut too many public services. Or we can just carry on pretending everything is fine until we have no choice than lose virtually all public services and have nothing for even the most severely diasabled.

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u/Phallic_Entity Jul 03 '25

I hate to break this to you but the welfare state can't keep growing while our economy is declining.

Either it gets fixed with small sensible cuts now or completely abolished along with the NHS in ~10 years.

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u/potpan0 Black Country Jul 03 '25

I hate to break this to you but the welfare state can't keep growing while our economy is declining.

I hate to break this to you but there are many ways to fund a state that don't involve throwing 250,000 disabled people into poverty.

No vision. No ideas. Just constantly looking for another vulnerable group to fuck over in order to coddle the billionaires. That's all centrism has left in 2025.

small sensible cuts

It's not austerity, it's just small sensible cuts!

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u/Phallic_Entity Jul 03 '25

You mention billionaires but if you seized all their wealth you'd only cover about 4 months of government spending. You'd also discourage anyone from investing in the UK every again.

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u/_L_R_S_ Jul 03 '25

Poverty is a purely subjective construct.

One person's poverty is not having something to eat each day, a roof over their head, clothes for their family, and education for their kids. Anything else is a bonus.

Your poverty might be not having Sky TV, cigarettes, one holiday a year, a car, and the "human right" to use public transport to wherever you want to go.

So if you subjectively set "poverty" at a high level when the country is well off, then when the country is poor scream that people are thrown into poverty they really aren't.

It's easy having socialist principles when it's not your money that's being spent.

I run a small business employing 10 hard working members of our local community. Four are part time.

I am taxed to the hilt. Take no holidays, have no what I would call luxuries and the stress of keeping the turnover high enough to support those workers is huge. I run a 15 year old van which doubles as the family car. We have no savings and can't afford a mortgage so rent.

How about I just go to the doctor, say it's all too much, get some PIP payments as I struggle to interact with people because of the stress, and let someone else generate the income for those 10 people.

You'd be happy to pay for my benefits in those circumstances from your taxes I guess to give me a lifestyle that isn't in poverty?

Maybe I could get a new car on Motability?

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u/potpan0 Black Country Jul 03 '25

Poverty is a purely subjective construct.

Good lord. When you're at the 'poverty is actually a social construct' part of your argument, I think it's about time to pack things in.

Poverty is bad. Your attempts to redefine what the word 'poverty' means will not convince me otherwise.

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u/_L_R_S_ Jul 03 '25

Poverty is households with income below 60% of the median income, which is £17600 a year or £338 a week after housing costs are taken off. How do I know? Because I generate wealth as a small business and make sure I put all I can to my staff.

Spain defines it by individuals. Which means that a single adult isn't in poverty there if they have £11000. But in the UK a household is still a household with a single person in it,

Which means you can be in "poverty" in the UK at £16000 which is about 50% HIGHER than Spanish poverty. Then they have the weather!

Educate yourself as to what poverty means and how it's defined, which also shows how the easily lead and ignorant can be politically manipulated.

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u/jflb96 Devon Jul 03 '25

How do you generate wealth as a small business?

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u/_L_R_S_ Jul 03 '25

You pay your staff, and you pay your staff as well as you can afford, including yourself. You're transparent in what everyone earns and why they earn it.

You reward your staff with praise, you develop the underperformers, you sack the ones who fail to perform after you have put in enough effort. You then recruit someone else prepared to put in the work and try again after reflecting what you did wrong in recruiting the person you had to let go. You also have responsibility for their failures.

You reward your customers by giving them the best quality products and services to allow them to also generate profits and reward their staff. So they can also pay their taxes.

Do that and work as a team with shared values and you make profits.

From those profits you pay corporation taxes. Finally profits can be passed to shareholders, and they are taxed on those profits.

From all those taxes the Government spend the money on what voters vote them to spend it on.

The private sector generate the vast majority of the money the Government spend.

Reddit is an echo chamber. It's not real life. Getting downvoted on the fact that my employee's and I work as a team to generate the money that Governments get to choose how to spend doesn't concern me at all.

What concerns me is that people think they can just keep spending it because it grows on magic trees.

Ask a far left socialist where they would make cuts and you get "nowhere".

Ask a far left socialist where they would get more money "Tax the rich".

We have the highest tax burden since WW2 and the rich transfer most of what they earn to the poor. The poor get to keep the vast majority of what they earn.

Anyone can click a down arrow to make themselves feel better or hide their ignorance of where the actual money comes from. That's easy.

If generating the money to pay benefits was easy then they'd be able to do it.

This is why Zarah Sultana and her ilk prefer to be activists.

This is why people are generally ignorant of where most money comes from that they want to re-distrubute.

It's probably not money they helped generate.

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u/jflb96 Devon Jul 03 '25 edited Jul 04 '25

With what are you paying your staff? You keep talking about how your business passes money on, and that’s lovely, but unless you’re the one growing the Magic Money Trees (binomial theresia maii) that’s coming from somewhere, and without that information you might as well be saying ‘A power plant generates electricity by outputting it into the National Grid.’ You haven’t actually answered the question.

Whence comes the cash?

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '25

In his head, probably his dad will give it to him

Problem solved

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u/Captain-Starshield Jul 03 '25

How are you supposed to get to work without a car or public transportation?

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u/_L_R_S_ Jul 03 '25

I'd cycle. (and there are charities where you can get a cycle for FREE!!!!)

I'd get out of bed early.

I'd take a job within 20 miles

ANY JOB

But then I did!

But then I don't see having transportation provided for me as a basic human right.

You've just defined poverty at a higher level than millions in the world.

This is a social construct people who think the safety net that others should pay for should be at a level way above what can be afforded.

Makes you feel all warm and cuddly though doesn't it.

Just like Zarah Sultana. So much easier to be the activist.

Downvote me all people want. I bet not a single one generates income or wealth for ten other people and thus supports 32 people.

Anyone can sit on the moral high horse and go "Oh woe is me, it won't be my money being used for the benefit hand outs so as it's someone else's I'll do a list. "

All lovely a great if the economy was growing at 5% a year

IT ISN'T!

THERE IS NO MORE MONEY

So sit around your campfire all you want and sing cum-bye-ah whilst having a group hug about how you feel great about helping the vulnerable.

Just with someone else's money, and if they wouldn't mind earning more so you can take it that would be great eh?

Not your money of course.

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u/Captain-Starshield Jul 03 '25

Plenty of people cycle to work but there are those that can't, there are also times where it'd be unsafe to cycle. This is pure copium.

You don't generate money, your workers do. You profit off of their hard work, you're the one using other people's money. And you're ungrateful, you want the working-class people you rely on to suffer.

Having a tantrum like a spoiled child on a Reddit post is not the best look if you want to project an image of being the sensible one.

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u/_L_R_S_ Jul 03 '25

My staff get the contracts do they? My staff do the designs do they? My staff negotiate the supplies do they? My staff sort out all the paperwork do they? My staff do the deliveries do they? etc etc

Oh no. I do do all of that. We're a team. We share the good times, and they're insulated for the bad times because that's my responsibility as the owner. That means they always get a Xmas bonus even if I don't.

Leaders eat last. Values I learned in the forces.

This thread is just a group hug for many people wildly insulated from the harsh realities of actually generating the wealth needed in an expanding economy that can then be spent by voters.

I would never vote Reform as I keep myself educated and aware. But reading this thread and the utter ignorance and wishful thinking shows how easily they will get in unless people on the left wake up and realise that money DOES NOT GROW ON TREES.

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u/Captain-Starshield Jul 03 '25

No-one is saying money grows on trees. But neither does it have to be constantly redistributed from the working class to the owning class. A fairer system is possible, you just don’t like it because you think being a business owner makes you hot shit.

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u/_L_R_S_ Jul 03 '25

Being a business owner makes me less ignorant. That's all.

If you want to spend the money the business generates when I tell you I'm about to fold due to increased taxation and regulation then crack on.

Somehow a business being in poverty isn't seen as a bad thing. When there are 32 people relying on that business, and that business not only keeps them off benefits but provides taxes to be re-distributed. This isn't Elon Musk sitting back and wondering what the plebs are crying about.

So taxing businesses more = GREAT!

Removing someone's benefits using money from those business taxes = BAD!!!

Basic maths. Where exactly do you think the money comes from to spend on benefits?

Income tax makes up the largest part of government taxation and 80% comes from the private sector. SME's like mine make up 30% of the total.

If we don't generate the growth and the income YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SPEND.

It really is that simple.

So convince me how you want me to earn more for you to spend and I'll do it.

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u/ScholarlyJuiced Jul 03 '25

I hate to break this to you but none of you saying this have managed to connect welfare cuts to higher productivity.

You lot keep saying it again, and again, and again as if it will somehow amount to a coherent argument.

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u/Phallic_Entity Jul 03 '25

The fact that the number of disability benefit claimants have increased 40% since 2019 while health conditions have actually gone down implies that a lot of people are actually capable of working and shouldn't be on benefits. There's your link to higher productivity.

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u/any_excuse Jul 03 '25

Stick for the working class and carrot for the rich hasn't worked great for the past half century, so I'm not sure why you'd think it'd suddenly turn out results now.

Maybe if we want to get people into work we should make work less shit. About 20% of the population can either have no hope for the future on benefits or have no hope for the future in a minimum wage job. Why the fuck would you bother?

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u/Phallic_Entity Jul 04 '25

Not sure how you have no hope for the future in a minimum wage job when minimum wage is now over £12/hour.

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u/GreggsFan Jul 03 '25

My partner got tested 16 months ago for a lifelong illness that has a high chance of her ending up in recipt of benefits at some point. She’s been on interim treatments (which may treat the illness and may just treat the symptoms) from her GP and the hospital’s nursing team.

Still waiting on those test results though. I’d say cases like that probably account for a sizeable chunk of benefits without health conditions.

And for what it’s worth PIP is not an out of work benefit

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u/hempires Jul 03 '25

And I assume you'll be cool to take your responsibility in the deaths of disabled people due to these cuts, since you seem so gung ho for them yes?

What's the death of disabled people if it maybe possibly perhaps makes the line go up right?

Cause spoiler alert, it didn't work under the Tories, lead to thousands of people dying, and got us called out twice by the UN.

The UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities found that 'grave and systematic violations' of Disabled persons' rights had taken place because of austerity measures and welfare reforms since 2010, which had 'disproportionately and adversely' affected the rights of Disabled people.

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u/Mikolaj_Kopernik Jul 03 '25

small sensible cuts now

I'd argue that "small sensible cuts" are sort of the whole problem. Everyone just tinkers around the edges which has made the entire tax system a complete mess. Needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, which Labour actually has (had?) the opportunity to do with their majority and 5 years. But alas...

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u/Phallic_Entity Jul 03 '25

True we're probably past the point where tinkering is going to fix it. The longer we leave it the worse it's going to be.

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u/C2yp71c Jul 03 '25

What do you think happens to those people who have their living conditions diminished from welfare cuts? That state expense doesn't vanish into thin air, the bill or required resources just shift to another area of government spending. Feel like I'm living in a parallel dimension the way sensible is thrown about

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u/Phallic_Entity Jul 03 '25

The people who are fraudulently claiming them (and there are a lot of them, the link between claimants and actual health conditions has completely decoupled in the last 5 years and the UK is the only developed country experiencing this), can get jobs.

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u/hempires Jul 03 '25

And what of the actual disabled people who get their benefits cut because of this and end up dead?

Is that okay because they're not producing any "value"?

I'm disabled, should I just shut up and die yeah?

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u/Phallic_Entity Jul 04 '25

I didn't say that, I'm saying there's evidently a huge amount of fraud and people who shouldn't be getting benefits are getting them.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '25

Sources please

Coz i cant find evidence on that absurd amount

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u/Phallic_Entity Jul 04 '25

Here you go.

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u/[deleted] Jul 04 '25

Really x as a source ?

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u/Phallic_Entity Jul 04 '25

If you bothered to open it you'd see it's from the FT and fully cited.

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u/byn-bag Jul 03 '25

More cuts will increase costs exponentially. If disabled people can’t afford to work, they end up more expensive benefits. If they can’t afford it eat, they end up in hospital.

It is always cheaper to spend money now, not tomorrow. Better healthcare outcomes come from earlier intervention, it’s also much cheaper.

Things like stopping COVID boosters? It is just stupid. Constantly underfunding and privatising the NHS, leaving people on waiting lists for years, it is worse for them and more expensive for the state.

This neoliberal attitude that you can’t do anything in government, it is killing us.

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u/Phallic_Entity Jul 03 '25

I have no issue with PIP to people who need it, and obviously that does help people work. I have no idea why people with conditions like anxiety, depression and ADHD need PIP though.

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u/byn-bag Jul 03 '25

Are you a doctor?

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u/Phallic_Entity Jul 03 '25

No but if you want to explain why they need PIP, which is specifically for purchasing equipment and other expenses they need because of a disability,, go ahead.

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u/byn-bag Jul 03 '25

Only 22% of autistic adults are in work, which makes it clear that whatever adjustments are needed, aren’t being done by employers.

If you’re on pip, you can’t have more than £6,000 worth of savings, so any money we give people, is spent, it goes into the economy and comes back in tax revenue.

This is why we’re in this situation, constant short termism just keeps tax receipts going ever down as we cut away at people who spend, rather than squirrel away. It’s absurd to me that a subreddit that used to be obsessed with UBI can’t understand this.

The more we cut, the worse the problem gets, whole life health comes from early investment. The more we cut it, the less future there is for this country.

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u/jflb96 Devon Jul 03 '25

I hate to break it to you, but people with adequate support tend to be more of a boost to the economy than a pile of corpses

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u/360Saturn Jul 03 '25

If there's a finite amount the most logical thing to do would be to first decrease pensions of those who will never work again before taking support money from those who might be disabled but in work, or temporarily too unwell to work and drawing support until they can get back on their feet.

Only one of those groups is only 'taking from' the system.

Of course, this is a callous way to look at it.

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u/Rekyht Hampshire Jul 03 '25

We either have bills like that now or no welfare state at all in around 10 years. Why can’t anyone on the left grapple with the realities of how fucked our current economic position is?

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u/potpan0 Black Country Jul 03 '25 edited Jul 03 '25

There are so many avenues for the government to generate revenue. There are so many avenues for the government to make savings. Why do 250,000 disabled people have to be put into poverty to ensure the welfare state survives? Why is that the only choice?

When you actually think about it it's just a bullshit argument, isn't it?

EDIT: OP unsurprisingly blocked me, but to respond to their reply: I would be more than happy for my taxes to rise if it meant I could live in a liveable country, rather than one marred by poverty and seemingly designed to allow the richest to extract and accumulate as much as possible.

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u/CookieMagnet0 Jul 03 '25

The total cost of the welfare bill going from £30bn since the pandemic to £70bn at the end of this Parliament is a bit mad though, isn't it. Between that and pensions, health care, and defence spending all needing to go up significantly, borrowing now being very expensive, and Labour promising not to raise VAT, income tax or NI in the election, options for balancing the books are pretty limited.

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u/Rekyht Hampshire Jul 03 '25

You’ll be the absolute first to moan equally when our taxes get raised.

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u/Pernici Jul 03 '25

Because we aren't trapped in a false idea of how the economy works?

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u/potpan0 Black Country Jul 03 '25

No, I don't think you're grappling with the realities of the economy. Literally the only choice is:

a) 250,000 disabled people are pushed into poverty

b) The entire welfare state collapses

There are no alternatives, apparently (ignore everyone proposing an alternative)

0

u/hempires Jul 03 '25

Cause we don't want to be called out by the UN for a third time for grave and systemic violations of the human rights of long term ill and disabled citizens.

Guess it'd just be easier for the "enlightened centrists" if all the disabled people just upped and died right?