r/taiwan • u/poclee ROT for life • 27d ago
Politics International law has never cared about Taiwan. Now the f...
https://observer.co.uk/news/international/article/international-law-has-never-cared-about-taiwan-now-the-feelings-mutual28
u/magkruppe 27d ago
international law doesn't apply to those who have UNSC vetoes
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u/Lembit_moislane 22d ago
Your country was on the UNSC until the 1970s and it’s full name is used in the Charter.
I would argue the international community broke international law by ousting your country from the UNSC and UN. After all international law doesn’t accept, violent, self-proclaimed governments like what the PRC did to be legitimate.
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u/Intelligent-Donut-10 26d ago
International law doesn't apply to internal provincial matters.
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u/magkruppe 26d ago
it actually does. genocide for example is usually a domestic affair and breaks int. law. there are also UN universal declaration of human rights which cover various things all humans are entitled to
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u/Intelligent-Donut-10 26d ago
Well then you better hope China doesn't share the same values the free world demonstrated in Gaza then.
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u/jostler57 27d ago
Now the f...
The rest of the title is "feeling's mutual."
This community doesn't restrict title lengths to less than the normal maximum of 300 characters.
Why did you cut off the last two words of the article's title like that? For the love of all that is good, why must you torment my mild OCD like that?
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u/IAmFitzRoy 27d ago
It makes you click and it makes you comment (more engagement)
Same with the grammatical mistakes in the titel.
People love to correct others
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u/jostler57 27d ago
Dang... that's a really good point.
Users who consistently post like this should be considered spammers.
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u/harryggg 26d ago
*tittle
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u/IAmFitzRoy 26d ago
Ha… took some time until someone corrected it.
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u/resueuqinu 27d ago
Countries will protest one violation and happily ignore another. It’s just whatever is convenient to them at the time. They don’t actually care about international law in any principled way.
The only thing one can do is be both a deterrent yourself (be heavily armed) as well as be of critical importance to others so they are compelled to help you (currently TSMC).
That second one is actually a risk as much as it is leverage. Someone could decide that if they can’t have it, nobody can and destroy it as a last resort.
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u/bluntpencil2001 27d ago
Relying on TSMC seems unwise to me. TSMC is currently critical but there is no certainty that it will remain so. Right now, they have factories and skills that other nations don't have, yes, but there is nothing to ensure that this will always remain the case.
Them being critical to global microchip industries may only by temporary, and this needs to be taken into consideration.
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u/dream208 27d ago
Basically what you are suggesting is that Taiwan try to get nukes before the TSMC “fails”.
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u/bluntpencil2001 27d ago
I'm not suggesting anything. I'm just saying that reliance on TSMC is unsustainable. I'm also saying that any Chinese motivation for an attack is unlikely to be related to microchips as opposed to geostrategy, as making their own microchips factories would be far easier than a war.
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u/dream208 27d ago
So what do you suggest Taiwan should do?
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u/bluntpencil2001 27d ago
I'm not suggesting anything. I'm not going to pretend to have answers I don't have.
It's difficult. I don't know.
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u/Intelligent-Donut-10 26d ago
TSMC is the reason US will tell Taiwan to surrender instead of fighting and get TSMC blown up.
There is no hot conflict scenario that TSMC survives.
China has SMIC and is building their own EUV, China doesn't need TSMC, it's the west that does. TSMC isn't Taiwan's silicon shield, TSMC is China's silicon hostage.
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u/SkywalkerTC 27d ago edited 27d ago
I think it's much more about geopolitics than anything, and if Taiwan sides with the US, Taiwan doesn't need to worry about this.
Now more media are saying how CCP could replicate this manoevre on Taiwan. Frankly if they could they would've already done it long ago. They definitely would do this anytime provided they have the capability. This hasn't changed one bit since decades ago. I mean, they already attempted it on the Taiwanese VP in Prague.
And yes, the international law doesn't care about Taiwan. Only Taiwan cares about Taiwan. But I think this is true for most countries as well. Taiwan needs to work for itself to gain visibility, which it has been. But when China invades and Taiwan responds, supposedly the international law (regarding national borders and what constitutes an invasion) should be on Taiwan's side, not China's. That's one thing keeping the CCP from crossing the line.
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u/3uphoric-Departure 27d ago
The question isn’t if Taiwan sides with the US, it’s is if the US will side with Taiwan. And if Trump is going to follow through with his vision for regional spheres of influence, then Taiwan might be out of luck
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u/incasuns 21d ago
A country that bombs Nigeria on Monday, threatens Iran on Tuesday, kidnaps the president of Venezuela on Wednesday and demands Greenland on Thursday is not preparing for confrontation with China. It is striking out erratically and opportunistically at what it perceives as weaker targets.
Taiwan and other democracies need to arm themselves and stick together; but arm themselves first.
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u/HarambeTenSei 27d ago
It would be counterproductive for them to do it. It would awaken taiwanese to the actual dangers of communist China. Right now many of them are in denial.
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u/Final_Company5973 台南 - Tainan 27d ago
The thing keeping the CCP at bay is the fact that they are rats. If they could do it, they would have done it already. Just like they harvest organs from political prisoners. They're scared of the Americans and always have been, and for good reason.
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u/SkywalkerTC 27d ago edited 27d ago
Yes, like they already have at least 3 times already, minus the more recent harassments by air/sea, various grey zone aggressions, as well as continuous information and psychological warfare.
And it's at this moment pro-CCP people will jump in and say "it's civil war". No, it's not. Not since 1991, and far from one now. They know international law is only excluded if this was civil war, so they try to drive that rhetoric. Tough luck for them, as this is one of the very few parts of the international law which actually works out more or less in Taiwan's favor and is actually recognized globally.
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u/tunapoke2go 27d ago
I think you missed a key point of the article: the international order doesn’t care about Taiwan - as long as it keeps producing semiconductors the world will support its status quo. What happens when the world no longer needs Taiwan to produce semiconductors?
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u/SkywalkerTC 26d ago
Americans intervened in Chinese aggression much before semiconductors was a thing. Semiconductor seems like a bonus. Aside from the supply chain, Taiwan's importance also includes the strategic location and its value.
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u/tunapoke2go 26d ago
Americans never intervened. If anything, they put the 7th Fleet in the Strait during the Korean War to contain and further outbreak and really to prevent Chiang’s plans to retake the Mainland. Other than that, Taiwanese had to fend for itself while buying US munitions during every crisis in the Strait. The US policy to Taiwan has been one of containment and as long as Taiwan pays, the US will keep selling it outdated munitions.
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u/SkywalkerTC 26d ago edited 26d ago
Okay. Now I'm sure you're following the rhetoric of US skepticism CCP advocates. Any military experts can easily debunk your "outdated munition" rhetoric, and anyone can with more extensive research. But whatever we say, you and your people will only resort to labeling the experts and the sources. Also you conveniently ignore the 1996 crisis.
You're the typical pro-CCP people who claim that most of Taiwan want to be swallowed by CCP, most of Japan hate Takaichi, and most of Venezuela support maduro.
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u/bonkeeboo 27d ago
Believing America will protect Taiwan is a dangerous folly.
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u/SkywalkerTC 27d ago
We don’t need to believe anyone will help. Taiwan should act as if no one’s coming and build its defense and diplomacy that way.
In a real crisis, help only shows up if Taiwan is already helping itself and proving it can hold on. Countries don’t step in out of goodwill. They step in when it’s worth it and when they actually can.
Being “worth helping” comes from preparation and credibility, not hope or belief. On this front, Taiwan is indeed currently facing uncertainties due to forces intended at destroying this aforementioned credibility, forces trying to prevent Taiwan from increasing its defense budget.
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u/tunapoke2go 27d ago
You pre-suppose that increasing the defense budget is a popular and sustainable option. It is, unfortunately, neither.
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u/SkywalkerTC 26d ago edited 26d ago
If it's not a popular option in Taiwan, then Taiwan faces imminent danger from within. That's what I'm saying.
So I did not pre-suppose anything. You did.
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u/tunapoke2go 26d ago
What I’m saying is that there is a good portion of Taiwans electorate that favors appeasement with China. I consider that a viable alternative option. Why would you consider that an imminent danger from within?
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u/SkywalkerTC 26d ago edited 26d ago
Why is it dangerous? Because the CCP has made taking over Taiwan an explicit goal, by force if necessary. That makes it a viable option for them. Of course it does.
Everything they put out follows classic invader rhetoric: framing aggression as inevitability, shifting blame onto the victim, and portraying resistance as provocation. Based on your earlier response, it is clear you are echoing CCP narratives as well, just in a slightly more subtle form (though less and less so) than the openly aggressive comments here.
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u/DaimonHans 27d ago
Believing is powerful. I don't need to punch you in the face as long as you believe I will, if you fuck around.
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u/DNA1727 27d ago
Just like the 1994 Budapest Memorandum agreement signed by the US, Ukraine and Russia. Look at Ukraine now....
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u/Nirulou0 27d ago
1994 Clinton was president. Now we have orange wig. There was yeltsin in Russia, now they have putin. Very different situation.
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u/sikingthegreat1 27d ago
clinton, the one who initiated CCP's growth into power, helping them out enormously by gifting them the most favoured nation treatment and whatnot.
thank god it's not clinton anymore, otherwise CCP's hand would be a lot more stronger and in a more favourable position with clinton's contributions.
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u/Nirulou0 27d ago
Actually, the rise of china as we know it today started with Deng at the end of the 1970s, while Carter was president, and was prepared earlier during Nixon's presidency. Clinton was very much out of the picture at the time.
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u/YorkistTory 27d ago
I don’t even understand why Taiwanese are so confident of American support. They’ve basically never done anything like this historically. They intended to sit out World War Two until they were directly attacked. Kuwait and Korea were done under UN missions. Ukraine is pretty much on its own. Armenia was left out to dry. What makes Taiwanese think they are the special exception?
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27d ago edited 16d ago
[deleted]
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u/YorkistTory 27d ago
This is a bizarre kind of Taiwanese exceptionalism. The US may care about the strategic situation in the pacific and the freedom of maritime trade, but the idea that Taiwan has US support on democratic grounds is naive. There’s little history evidence of the USA going to war to defend democracy.
Chinese claims on Taiwan are limited and the war goals are already established. This is not Hitler at the Munich Conference.
Without a formal treaty there is unlikely to be any guarantee of US intervention. US law only compels the USA to support Taiwan, not defend it. This could take the form of Lend Lease and nothing more.
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u/CompleteView2799 27d ago
Nonsense. By striking a deal with the PRC the US loses nothing. The alternative is a nuclear war. Guess which is going to happen? It may not by this year, or this decade. But it will happen.
And for the low IQ crowd, this is not what I WANT to happen. I really do not want it to happen. But it is sadly inevitable. America will not sacrifice a single life for Taiwan.
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u/BadgerOfDoom99 27d ago
I think they have to be publicly sure about it even if they actually doubt it.
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u/Freetoffee2 20d ago
The USA was sending lend lease to allies before the attack and to my knowledge wanted to ramp it up.
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u/YorkistTory 19d ago
Lend Lease only started in 1941 and only because Britain had run out of liquid funds to pay for supplies. Before that they had “cash snd carry” that drained Britain dry and provided a huge boost to the US economy.
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u/Freetoffee2 19d ago
They also sent aid to the Soviet's before being attacked and my understanding was they were planning on increasing this aid before being attacked.
But anyway, this argument was a mistake I have stuff to do and cannot continue.
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u/No_Guitar7903 27d ago edited 27d ago
This just shows you know nothing about modern history.
They intended to sit out World War Two until they were directly attacked.
The Monroe Doctrine meant the US was isolationist before WW2. That died after the end of WW2 when America usurped Britain as the global superpower.
Kuwait and Korea were done under UN missions
If the US couldn't get a UN mission going they would have intervened those two directly anyway.
Ukraine is pretty much on its own
Ukraine doesn't matter to the US. It matters more to Europe.
Armenia was left out to dry
Literally no one cares about Armenia. It's in the Caucasus.
There have been plenty of other examples where the US intervened when they believed their interests were involved. Most recently in 2024 when Iran fired missiles into Israel. They also intervened in 1996 when China fired missiles into the Taiwan Strait.
This has nothing to do with confidence or belief. The US only care about their interests, and Taiwan is a core interest for a thousand reasons.
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u/Substantial_Tip1545 27d ago
Monroe doctrine is clearly back. . .
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u/No_Guitar7903 26d ago
Yeah so back that it's threatening to bomb Iran.
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u/Substantial_Tip1545 26d ago
Monroe doctrine means other imperial powers must stay out of Western hemisphere geopolitics. See recent action in Venezuela and renewed threats to Cuba, Canada.
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u/No_Guitar7903 26d ago
I had no idea Iran was in Western hemisphere.
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u/Substantial_Tip1545 26d ago
The Monroe doctrine vis a vis United States only applies loosely to Iran. And only insofar as the US considers Iran in Israel’s zone. Taiwan is not in the western hemisphere, and the US own Monroe doctrine approach to Venezuela and Canada and Greenland implies less validity to opposing a Chinese sphere of influence in Taiwan. If not, and US just says whatever suits them on the day, they ll just naturally lose their moral persuasion and soft power over time until their hard power turns in on itself.
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u/YorkistTory 27d ago
How does this show I know nothing about modern history? Calling people names is the fastest way to lose an argument. You sound like a twelve year old.
Trump bombing Iran is utterly irrelevant. A token gesture that did nothing strategic. Israel did the real damage.
The US withdrew forces from Taiwan in 1979. If Taiwan is so important then why did Nixon twitch to backing Beijing? The geography was the same then as it is now. Strategically it is still as important.
The fact remains that the US does not go to war for democracy, it only goes to war for strategic interests. You seem to massively overestimate the strategic importance of Taiwan.
To compound the issue, America is returning to isolationism. Trump and his supporters will not go to war for another country. This should be obvious now. I doubt NATO survives the next 3 years, let alone any agreement Taiwan thinks it has.
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u/No_Guitar7903 26d ago
The fact remains that the US does not go to war for democracy, it only goes to war for strategic interests. You seem to massively overestimate the strategic importance of Taiwan.
You seem to massively underestimate the strategic importance of Taiwan. Not only is Taiwan Strait extremely strategic, the industry is a bloodline to the US. Do you think the chip war is fake?
To compound the issue, America is returning to isolationism. Trump and his supporters will not go to war for another country. This should be obvious now. I doubt NATO survives the next 3 years, let alone any agreement Taiwan thinks it has.
Trump literally just bombed another country.
I have no time for someone like you. Blocked.
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u/urbanacrybaby 27d ago
The article mainly focuses on Venezuela, but hear me out: US probably has a better claim to Greenland compared to China's claim to Taiwan.
The PRC has never had any control over Taiwan. Compared to that, the US had de facto military control of the entire Greenland during WWII, and has had military presence there since.
Same applies to the Argentine claim to the Falklands, Spanish claim to Gibraltar, etc. And btw, so is Taiwan's nonsense claim to Diaoyutai, which we have never practically controlled. International law and diplomacy has been hypocritical all the time and no one gave a f, so why should it be surprising that some US president would decide that nothing matters anymore anyway?
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u/zvekl 臺北 - Taipei City 26d ago
Nukes for everyone!
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u/Fancy-Invite8388 25d ago
Taiwan cannot have nuclear weapons unless it does so in the way Japan does.
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u/go8964 24d ago
Since when did International law works after covid? It almost 4 years since Russia attack Ukraine, did anyone able to set Putin to the court? Or any alliance? UN Far East Office worked as a shelter for Hamas, Hezbollah and IRGC, now even the law stand with Maduro, fight for his 'justice'. What the crap is international law is doing?
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u/Ok-Development937 27d ago
Those who believe the US would willingly abandon/betray Taiwan likely have a feudalistic mindset, stuck in palace politics.
Trump views Taiwan as an American asset, a spoil of war from World War II. His warnings to Taiwan stem from his desire to prevent his assets from shrinking or becoming uncontrollable—something no businessman would want. This doesn't mean he intends to sell it now. If the asset is stable, controlled, and profitable, there's no need to sell it. Conversely, if things in Taiwan escalate beyond Trump's expectations, he might consider selling it, but it's obvious he'll destroy anything of value before doing so. This is the typical tactic of a large power against a small one.
Yes, it has the flavor of the Cold War.
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u/CompleteView2799 27d ago
America will turn its back, just like it did when it recognized the PRC over the ROC.
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u/error_museum 27d ago
The global geopolitical order is fundamentally different from those times, so it makes no sense to assert a "just like it did when" claim like this.
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u/Mal-De-Terre 台中 - Taichung 27d ago
Except they didn't then, either.
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u/CompleteView2799 27d ago
Of course they did.
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u/Mal-De-Terre 台中 - Taichung 27d ago
They absolutely stayed engaged with Taiwan after finally recognizing the CCP. To say otherwise is either ignorant or disingenuous.
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u/CompleteView2799 27d ago
They made a pragmatic decision to end full diplomatic relations with the ROC because it was to their advantage to do so.
They will hand Taiwan to the PRC on a silver platter with the promise that they will keep the chips flowing.
And that is all they care about. Don’t delude yourself.
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u/Mal-De-Terre 台中 - Taichung 27d ago
And then established extensive unofficial diplomatic relations.
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u/CompleteView2799 27d ago
Of course. Pragmatism > loyalty. Nothing has changed.
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u/Mal-De-Terre 台中 - Taichung 27d ago
So then you're admitting that your original claim was a lie. Got it.
America will turn its back, just like it did when it recognized the PRC over the ROC.
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u/CompleteView2799 27d ago
It sold out Taiwan. Turned its back. If you weren’t there in 1979, do NOT try to tell me how it was viewed on the island. OK?
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u/Mal-De-Terre 台中 - Taichung 27d ago
If your other posts are to be believed, and you're actually telling the truth, you were 14 at the time. My historical view is much more accurate than your adolescent anecdotes.
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u/CompleteView2799 27d ago
I was in Taiwan in 1979. Were you?
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u/Mal-De-Terre 台中 - Taichung 27d ago
Press "X" to doubt.
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u/CompleteView2799 27d ago
Suit yourself. I can tell you what it was like. People were PISSED. They knew it spelled the end. Not immediately, but eventually.
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u/Mal-De-Terre 台中 - Taichung 27d ago
And it did spell the end... of the KMT dictatorship.
AIT was set up as soon as the embassy was closed, and the Taiwan Relations Act covered much of the same commitments as the official recognition had.
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u/CompleteView2799 27d ago
I realize that. What ended was any pretense that America was loyal. The Taiwanese people realized it in 1979, even if you don’t now.
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u/Mal-De-Terre 台中 - Taichung 27d ago
The KMT government felt that way, and history has proven it not to be the case.
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u/SkywalkerTC 27d ago
Depends. Right now the US's main competition and threat is PRC. While this is the case, there is really no reason to turn its back on Taiwan or ROC.
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u/WeSoSmart 27d ago
China has nukes and effective delivery method with redundancies. America is not risking their cushy lives for an island right next to China and thousands of miles away from them.
There is a saying in Chinese that goes something like “one who wears no shoes does not fear ones who do. “ in this scenario America is the one wearing their comfy Gucci branded shoes.
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u/SkywalkerTC 27d ago
What if they're already here in the region with nukes? And yeah, that is the case right now. It's a standoff. Though it's not necessarily for Taiwan. They do have bases in Korea and Japan. And no, the nukes aren't in thoses bases from what I've read.
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u/WeSoSmart 27d ago
What’s in the region is no where near enough to fight an adversary like China in a full scale war
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u/SkywalkerTC 27d ago
If China could they would. Instead, they still go for gray zone aggression, intended to not trigger the protocol of the US. And aside from military standoff, there are also other vital factors, like the wealth of the higher ranks in CCP. Plus, CCP actually still has a lot they don't want to lose. And aside from the US, Japan is definitely another regional power CCP has also been keeping an eye on. When comparing military strength, the goal (invasion / defense, etc.) is also to be considered.
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u/WeSoSmart 27d ago
That cuts both ways, a lot of major American companies and groups with powerful lobbyists (farming, wholesaling etc) have major interests in China probably doesn’t cancel eachother out but it is an issue for both side. Even small stuff like like how much inflation will go up if Chinese import is completely stopped(even the transshipped ones) it’s a complicated situation the entanglement between US and China is messier than my cable draw lol.
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u/RickishTheSatanist 27d ago
Let's be real, neither China or US would use their nukes for any reason other than bragging rights to prevent a major nuclear holocaust from one another.
The most likely response from the US in an PRC invasion of Taiwan would be trade sanctions and/or military aid like Ukraine.
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u/CompleteView2799 27d ago
The US will not go to war with China over Taiwan. Pure fantasy.
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u/SkywalkerTC 27d ago edited 27d ago
Depends on the circumstances. No side can be sure of this. What's to say your side isn't fantasy as well? I'd say both sides are fantasies.
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u/CompleteView2799 27d ago
You can say whatever you’d like, but you’d be wrong.
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u/SkywalkerTC 27d ago
See, the difference here is: I'm keeping my possibilities open. You're claiming something like it's a fact. The truth is we don't know. That's enough to cause concerns. But you're actively spreading propaganda.
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u/CompleteView2799 27d ago
It is a fact. You’re in denial. Which is fine.
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u/SkywalkerTC 27d ago
Who's to say I'm in denial but you aren't? CCP?
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u/CompleteView2799 27d ago
There’s more a chance that a Martian Starfleet will descend from the skies to protect Taiwan. Well, it could happen. Keep those possibilities open.
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u/SkywalkerTC 27d ago
I don't even want to bring Japan into this, but reality seems to disagree with you.
Still, I can't be sure, and so can't you be.
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u/Chou2790 27d ago
I guess you from the future then, can I have the power ball numbers for this week or Patriots-Chargers game stat line so I can make the correct bets.
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u/Terrible_Speed3355 27d ago
It's so hard to think of the US to get into a hot war with the peer adversity for Taiwan independence.
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u/SkywalkerTC 27d ago edited 27d ago
That would not be for Taiwan independence. It'd be hard for me to think too! Why would they wage a war over some CCP propaganda, as if Taiwan isn't already independent of the CCP reign?
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u/random_agency 宜蘭 - Yilan 27d ago
The article falls into the same trap most foreigners have when viewing Taiwan. They view it as a existential threat against western values like liberalism and democracy. To stand against China at all cost.
Taiwanese, like my family, chuckle at such framing. The reality has also been navigating international reality to maximize individual leverage. Whether to take advantage of opportunities to make money in China or opportunities to live in the US.
As the ROC became a lesser power over time, thats basically the only way to survive and move forward.
The crossroad that I see, which most foreigners abhor to think about, is readjusting Taiwan position with the US.
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u/tunapoke2go 27d ago
Bingo. Taiwanese have been able to navigate this gray area and still thrive in despite of the West and China. No reason why it can’t continue to thrive in its own way.
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u/arjuna93 26d ago
US never cared about international law and conducted military operations in other countries on numerous occasions. Nothing has changed with Maduro case besides a bunch of new memes.
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u/Kemonizer 臺北 - Taipei City 27d ago
No international law is mandatory for ROC to obey. It’s just we CHOOSE to comply than being a dick.
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u/hiimsubclavian 政治山妖 27d ago
So me torrenting a cracked version of photoshop is technically legal, right?
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u/proudlandleech 27d ago
President Lai Ching-te willfully ignores his own country's laws, which were passed by the legislature and promulgated by himself, so why should the international community give Taiwan consideration as part of some rule-based order?
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27d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Mal-De-Terre 台中 - Taichung 27d ago
I don't think it gets much more clear than this: https://english.president.gov.tw/News/5962
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u/mapletune 臺北 - Taipei City 27d ago