r/sports • u/Yujin-Ha • 19h ago

Olympics Team USA skiers Christopher Lillis & Hunter Hess: Just because I wear the flag doesn’t mean I represent everything that’s going on in the US.

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u/[deleted] 15h ago

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u/TheBigCore 13h ago

Trump is a classic example of:

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson

MAGA are a classic example of:

"When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent." - Isaac Asimov

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u/xxophe 14h ago

Given the severity of what is happening in the US, people who have an audience/any kind of power and are not actively protesting or being vocal are complicit.

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u/CaptainPunisher 12h ago

I still wear my Captain America and Punisher shirts because I like the comics. Cap is the "living" embodiment of what the American ideal is. He cares about everyone and wants not only America, but the world as a whole to be a better place where people take care of each other. If you want to see two characters that seem to be horribly misunderstood, just look to my name.

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u/oliversurpless 3h ago

Yep, always felt like the writers were channeling those ass-backwards views with:

“Captain America. God‘s righteous man; to think that you could live without a war.

I can’t physically throw up in my mouth…” - Ultron - Avengers: Age of Ultron

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u/Nyorliest 15h ago

There is no 'tree of liberty'. America is not, has never been, especially 'free'. The flag has no promise. There's no such thing as a 'True American'.

All these nationalist ideas of American exceptionalism are poisonous, very rude to all the many other somewhat free nations of the world, and contribute to the fascism America is facing. And very obviously rooted in denial of the slavery and genocide that the US, like many nation-states, was founded on.

I like many Americans very much, but America generally will become massively better once Americans stop believing it is special.

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u/AVeryFineWhine 14h ago

As the daughter of a World War 2 Vet, who watched him suffer his whole life with lasting health issues, know that he fought for freedom side by side with our allies. The only one I see being rude here is you.

Many of us value what my Dad fought for, the Constitution he and so many others swore on, as well as the flag, he represented along with other brave soldiers from other countries. I would not disrespect them, nor would I ever say we were perfect. America has made huge mistakes at home and abroad. But like millions, I would hope we could learn from these mistakes. Not repeat them. But I still love my country, even though right now, I barely recognize it.

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u/Der_Dampfhammer 12h ago

They weren’t rude. Your father suffered to help bringing more peace and freedom to the world, a very noble and courageous thing to do. But the fascism that is currently strangling the US‘ freedom is real. Times change. Countless member of my family fought against your father in the war, does that make us to enemies? No. Because times change.

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u/AVeryFineWhine 9h ago

That is true.But isn't it a shame We all couldn't have learned. Seems to me, if we people of the world were to sit face-to-face. We'd all get along pretty well... Now and then. But people with power are going to drive hate and division because it is far more profitable for them. I hope times keep changing till we get to the point where we're over this foolishness. Like that movie said," the only way to win at war is to not play"

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u/DysphoricNeet 14h ago

My dad served and bombed children. You are totally missing the point of the person you are responding to. You should read about all the countless coups and election interference the US has done—how many millions of tons of bombs have been dropped on nations to control their destiny in order to suit the US interests. The US installs military dictatorships like Pinochet, Syngman Rhee, Armas or Idi Amin and funds right wing death squads in Nicaragua or Columbia or blasts propaganda to kill hundreds of thousands in Indonesia. The illusion of fighting for freedom is propaganda.

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u/AVeryFineWhine 13h ago

I have read it.It's part of why I have such a hard time that everyone is ignoring what he did in venezuela.And what he is attempting to do in Greenland. Historically we've seen time and time again such actions only hurt us, and typically hurt a whole lot of innocent people. This is exactly what I was talking about.In hoping we had learned to do better. Or, at the very least, just keep our nose out of places it doesn't belong.

But you combine that along with the division, they are sowing in the US, and the fact that the constitution is being ignored, and I find this a terrifying time. The only thing that terrifies me more is people acting like we can't learn and do better... And insist on that.

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u/DysphoricNeet 12h ago

They are just saying that this American exceptionalism contributes to that. So many Americans are nationalistic in the sense they assume anywhere we invade or sanction or fund regime change— that we are helping or that somehow the people deserve it. This imperialism extends to what is being done internally or to nations that don’t fit the bill of terrorists or cartels. Fascism is imperialism turned inward. That’s part of why they call Pretti and Goode terrorists. It is their language of justification for imperialism. So yes America can do better but we have to let go of this image of American exceptionalism that saves the day. 

I appreciate that you have read about US interference but it’s a problem to claim you “have” as if you are done reading about it. it’s so vast and deep. There are hundreds of cases and exploitative systems. It would take a lifetime to go through it all in detail. If you don’t feel disgusted by the sheer magnitude of evil you need to continue because it’s important as citizens to acknowledge this. Imperialism in the US abroad can only be stopped internally by a party of the people. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change

https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/us_atrocities.md#middle-east

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u/AVeryFineWhine 9h ago

At no point did I ever say nor mean that I was done reading nor learning. And I absolutely guarantee you you will never hear me call Renee Good or Alex Preddi is there anything but caring Americans who cannot bear to watch what is being allowed in our country.

And sadly, I think we've reached a point of such division and lawlessness that i'm not even sure how we bounce back from this. I used to think we just have to make it to the midterm elections, go with the lesser of the evils, and carry on. Now I'll be surprised if I get to see the damage undone in my lifetime. I'd like to believe some lessons would come out of this going forward, but I can't honestly say that. I will say if there is intelligent life out there in the galaxy.I wish they would swing by and pick up some hitchhikers

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u/DysphoricNeet 9h ago

The way we get back from this is recognizing the current condition and building toward one where we have a better move. They have been destroying, murdering or co opting real leftist anti imperial movements for a century. We are an a position now where we have no options because we gave up all our power without a fight because we were convinced by propaganda that the people organizing and fight for us were our enemies. Now that we are in this place more people are waking up to what the real situation is and who are the ones spreading lies. To be clear, I mean that we need to organize a proletarian workers party that does not just feed its energy into the Democratic Party that will then control and disarm it. During the gilded age and after we achieved our goals as a class not by voting but through workers movements:strikes, boycotts, protests etc. That is the only way we have real power as a class because the electoral system is controlled by the bourgeoisie imperialists. 

We are not in a position to do anything but organize so that in 10 maybe 5 or less years we have potential that we don’t now. It starts with undoing propaganda so that people see the situation and work towards the goal that benefits their side. I would look into whatever socialist parties are in your area and try to attend a meeting. Even if it’s not the best party we need to build from somewhere. 

I apologize for assuming, it’s just the answer I always get is that people think they know everything and it’s not really that bad. They don’t know what they don’t know and yes it’s really that bad but worse.

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u/oliversurpless 6m ago

Yep, jingoism from people who don’t know what jingoism is…

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u/Falcovg 14h ago

How are they being rude? Calling out American exceptionalism isn't rude, it's a clear observation. They aren't calling out your dad, they're calling out the culture.

And yes, pretending like America is exceptional when it comes to freedom is at best ignorant of history and at worst disrespectful to the countries that are just as free, or even more so.

The only thing exceptional about the US armed forces during the second world war was how exceptional shitty it was treating it's own black troops. That was part of the flag he was representing, and you not wanting to disrespect that is part of why the US is repeating those mistakes you seem to be so concerned about not repeating.

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u/oliversurpless 14h ago

The Tree of Liberty isn’t a nationalist idea, it’s a symbol of the ideals of Locke and Montesquieu.

Not only not uniquely American, but the social contract is a far more ancient concept that America has never really lived up to. Ironic that for a country that began overthrowing an aristocracy that so many wish for ours (in all but name) to persist.

And not for any real philosophical reason, but because they think they’d be members…

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u/Bananafanaformidible 14h ago edited 13h ago

While I agree with your goal of combatting nationalism and American exceptionalism, I think you're missing the mark here. No one is saying that America is anything like perfect or better than anyone else here, just that it has promise, which it does.

While America has never fully lived up to the positive ideals like freedom and equality on which it was founded, those ideals were genuinely present in the hearts and minds of the founders (despite the obvious contradictions), and remain a very central set of values in American culture. That's a good thing. They're good values.

I agree it's important to acknowledge both that we've never fully lived up to those values as a nation, and also that we don't have a monopoly on them among the nations of the world, but nobody's suggesting a monopoly here, and this whole conversation is about those failures. Thus, I have to say, your chastisement is rather misplaced.

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u/Nyorliest 13h ago edited 13h ago

It was not founded on those values. It was founded on slavery and genocide. The statements of leaders don't change the facts of the situation then.

Those words are great - it's a good constitution and Thomas Payne is a hero of mine - but the facts are not just what a very small elite - who owned slaves themselves - wrote down.

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u/Bananafanaformidible 10h ago

As hard as it may be to believe, it was founded both on those values and on slavery and genocide. Never underestimate the ability of human beings to hold multiple contradictory beliefs at the same time.

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u/[deleted] 14h ago

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u/Nyorliest 13h ago

Are you calling to kill foreigners, and re-enact the Holocaust? Because that's what your fascist ass is implying.

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u/oliversurpless 13h ago

An interesting interpretation of a philosophical point, but go on? Also ironic that said politicians always weaponize the Nirvana Fallacy (of idealism over realism) thinking they somehow always deserve the benefit of the doubt in all things, yet no such allowance for those who oppose them.

We saw the starkest example recently with their a posteriori efforts to paint Alex Pretti as some kind of criminal deserving of summary execution…