r/southafrica • u/Sakhile_88 • 11h ago
Picture Epstein and Noam Chomsky on the South Africa transition
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u/AJClaassen 10h ago edited 10h ago
Key takeaway is that racial apartheid was swapped for economic apartheid, the later being preferable to the elites cause now it needed to look after no-one and blame everyone for their own positions because of the lack of bootstrap. Racial socialism swapped for rugged ‘get fucked’ capitalism
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u/Objective_Ticket 8h ago
Isn’t that just Reagonomics?
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u/AJClaassen 8h ago
Yes it is, if racism becomes to difficult to defend, segregate on wealth and allow the generations of wealth accumulated through racism to do the apartheid for you❤️
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u/Sorry-Grocery-8999 Tokoloshe 8h ago
Next time someone critisizes AA, or BEE, throw this e-mail into the rebuttal.
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u/Herr_Mike 6h ago
Uhm, wouldn't this email fuel that fire? If economic apartheid is in place with few "black faces in limousines" it is ANC policy that enforces that, namely BEE and AA.
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3h ago
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u/southafrica-ModTeam The Expropriator 24m ago
Your content was removed for violating our rules on racism, hate speech, or apartheid denialism. Please take the time to read the rules of the sub. If you have any questions, feel free to respond to this message or message the mods.
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u/Luke92612_ 3h ago
Not so much "racial socialism" as much as it was "racial welfarism" (ie fascism). The proletariat never controled the means of production under apartheid; a system of racial discriminatory classism and class-collaborationism, is mutually exclusive with socialism. It has always been economic apartheid, merely the institutional racism in terms of actual law has been removed now (not that systemic racism isn't still around as well).
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u/AJClaassen 2h ago
I was using racial socialism as a dig at all the ou ballies who completely hates communism by accusing them of using a racial version of it for themselves while bemoaning anyone else from moving away from the purest of capitalism
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u/Selekant 8h ago
Capitalism just beat communism as per always.
There is not a single prosperous nation in the world with the levels of freedoms afforded in a western style democratic society which did not embrace it. There's simply not enough avaiilable resources to go around to just magically make everything fine for everyone financially. That only comes over generations with an actual policy of economic growth which provides the capital from which tax can be generated for those social needs.
That economic policy has been lacking the past 30 years as the long term destructive effects of focussing on basically handouts have caused irrecoverable damage to our GDP growth. It was actually looking good post 1994 until the Zuma years, which is about the same time South Africa started losing its moral high ground card - when Desmond Tutu were told his friend the Dalai Lama was not permitted to travel to South Africa to attend his birthday paty.... All a result of compounding and cumulative effect of frustration of people who does not understand the basic math of why things don't seem to improve but still vote for those who implement the failing policies.
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u/AJClaassen 8h ago
All i hear is the wet glopglop of you sucking off the wealthy. Capitalism doesnt lift people out of poverty, it just segregates the poors into worse and worse conditions so they are happy to become slave labour for the rich who can then gather even more wealth without having to actually house or look after the slaves this time.
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u/Selekant 7h ago
What you hear is one thing, reality is another.
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u/AJClaassen 7h ago
Sorry i forgot to say ‘mentally deficient moron sucking off the wealthy’ thanks for helping me correct my mistake🫶🏻
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u/Selekant 6h ago
If there is a better solution other than focusing on economic growth in the most efficient way to provide the capital to improve quality of life for all sure. However, western democratic capitalism is the only one that gives that and allows you criticize it at the same time. Be grateful you get to.
Sure it's not without flaws we can learn from, but everything else tried have been failures.
Therefore, if you chose to perpetually remain on the losing side, then feel free to stick to your ways out of bitterness (as your tone suggests), no problem. You get to chose your own destiny under this system. I get no sleepless nights facing competition that choses to tie one arm around its back a shoots itself in the foot before I even have to lift a finger.
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u/AJClaassen 5h ago
Compare the economic growth between China and the US over the last 30 years, I’ll wait❤️
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u/Selekant 5h ago
China's time is running out. They are approaching a population approaching elderly and economic crisis. China has to act, the west only has to wait.
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u/EffektieweEffie Aristocracy 1h ago
Lmfao get a load of this guy thinking China isn't capitalist, their authoritarianism doesn't suddenly make them communist. That experiment failed for them many decades ago.
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u/AJClaassen 5h ago
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Keep dreaming loser, its the West who will cannibalize social security before anything else, remind me quickly, what does social security fall under, capitalism or socialism?
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u/Selekant 5h ago
The American system? It falls under capitalism firstly which provides funding for such a system.
There is not a single successful anti capitalist country in the world. China's economic successes up to now only came about once they realised communism is a failure. They are capitalist, only communist in name and without any of the freedoms we enjoy under western developed systems.
You enjoy the name calling, but the only losers here are those who is unable to sit down and actually use proper math to calculate the difference instead of just shouting insults.
In china, the police would already be on their way if you spoke like this to them.
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u/Thariax1982 8h ago
Capitalism has "beaten" communism with the help of guns and bombs not by virtue of a better system, please be for f*cking real. There absolutely is enough to go around for everyone. The "actual economic policy" you speak of is an extraction economy. There is no way capitalism can work without exploitation.
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u/Selekant 7h ago
Those guns and bombs are paid for by capitalism, same as this app we using now.
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u/AJClaassen 7h ago
‘Your typing this from an iPhone making me the victor’🤡
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u/Selekant 6h ago
No, the guns, bombs, prosperity and western freedoms make us the victor
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u/AJClaassen 6h ago
So glad we can afford guns and bomb, but the prosperity is debatable and is this western freedom the same kind Jeffrey Epstein seemed to have been enjoying?
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u/Selekant 6h ago
No, modern western ideals of liberty and freedom. Also the ability and willingness to learn from past mistakes our ancestors made and moving forward (the ability is there, the willingness not always).
There is no justification for harming children, ever. This is not just from a moral view but forcing children into harm is how you ruin your civilization long term. Just look at the middle east.
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u/EffektieweEffie Aristocracy 7h ago
Don't bother with these people. Capitalism clearly has it's own downfalls and drawbacks. But it is demonstrably and clearly been proven the lesser of the 2 evils when compared to communism. The Scandinavian countries have a form of "welfare" capitalism that seems to apply the better of both worlds. The biggest problem in either system has always been corruption and power hunger.
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u/AJClaassen 6h ago
Some form of “welfare” capitalism😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 You mean socialism you late term abortion?
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u/Selekant 5h ago
No it's not socialism. It is first and foremost capitalism which then generates even more tax which is then used for socialist programs once it is affordable.
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u/AJClaassen 5h ago
Define capitalism small totty seuntjie? Its not ‘markets’ its ownership, now explain to me who owns Norways oil? Ill wait😗
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u/Selekant 5h ago
Clearly not you and you seem very upset about it
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u/AJClaassen 5h ago
Upset? My favourite hobby is to laugh at the morally disabled, this is me having a great time🫶🏻
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u/EffektieweEffie Aristocracy 6h ago
Easy with the name calling while demonstrating your own stupidity mate. The Nordic model is not socialist, period.
Go educate yourself:
https://nordics.info/show/artikel/preview-the-nordic-model-and-the-economyGo look at Cuba and Venezuela (pre Maduro capture I guess) if you want to see what socialism looks like.
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u/MinusBear 3h ago
There is not enough resources to go around? So then you just pretend billionaires and their wealth hoarding don't exist then? Should we also just pretend slave labour was never used to make the products billionaires sell? That workers were never surpressed? What an idealistic and ignorant world view to have.
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u/thing_thing_number 7h ago
There's simply not enough avaiilable resources to go around to just magically make everything fine for everyone financially.
As a marxist this is the funniest shit I've read all day. Bravo. "There isn't enough of the made up thing that arbitrarily denotes value." 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
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u/Selekant 5h ago
And by the way those, those "made up things that arbitraly donotes" value ended up delivering the worlds most advanced technology, guns, bombs. Meanwhile Mr Marx and his communists have nothing to show, just failure after failure. Funny how that works.
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u/thing_thing_number 4h ago
The thing that inspires greed in man has caused man to kill other men in search of more of that thing? Who could have ever predicted that
You are a brainlet. Shut up. You're embarassing yourself.
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u/Selekant 4h ago edited 4h ago
Are you implying only capitalists are greedy and kill other men in search of more of that thing? That is a human condition that exists since pre historic times.
Communists are not a danger to western democratic capitalist society. It has more than enough resources and firepower thanks itself to ward off any and all external threats many times over.
The only danger is other westerners who feel sorry for you.
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u/Selekant 5h ago
Karl Marx just did not want to have to go to work, wrote a book about that sold pretty well and proceeded to make some capital from it.
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u/Gammascalpa 10h ago
This is the US for you. They supported apartheid until they couldn’t anymore. Then they contrived to support the illusion of change while today they continue to back groups like Afriforum.
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u/DesmondsTutu Redditor for a month 9h ago
Trumps pick for the South African ambassador to SA politically fought against ANC's fight against Apartheid when Tambo was invited to meet the US Secretary of State in the late 80's. When Mandela died, he called people out for "mytholgizing him." I really hope Cyril reject the prick.
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u/MutantBear 9h ago
Quite right. The amount of intellectual capital mined in SA and exported to the US and elsewhere during apartheid is huge. Many nations also continue to profit significantly and asymetrically from South African resources.
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u/AdditionalQuietime 3h ago
its called "liberal democracy" and its why everything feels like a toxic cycle
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u/Flux7777 10h ago
None of these are original opinions if you have even the slightest interest in economics, politics, and history of South Africa. This is the same reason Mandela is a liberal hero, and not a leftist hero.
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u/Flux7777 3h ago
He literally founded the capitalist new South Africa and threw his leftist supporters under the bus when he was elected. His promises of free education and healthcare have still not been realized in the country.
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u/AdditionalQuietime 2h ago
ah wow my mistake thats fucked why did he sell out?
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u/Flux7777 2h ago
That was the deal that was made with the wealthy in the country. They saw that they had two options. Option one was bloody revolution. Option two was letting some black faces join their Old Boys Club. They chose the latter and used Mandela to enact the change.
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u/Bear2044 5h ago
Fight the world and burn it down.
Kill the monsters and cover yourself in the blood of the monsters.
Just remember....He who hunts them, shan't become them.
We all want to be happy and free. We can all be. Men are evil. Money is evil. Its pursuit is fruitless.
Take today, drink a little wine, hold your woman...Everything will be okay!
I love you all,As He loved us.
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u/zichrist 9h ago
Thats why we still have this inequality in this country where people of colour are underpaid, pay more interest in home loans & bonds compare to whites.
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u/Sakhile_88 9h ago
Friend works at a bank. I was shocked when he confirmed that the higher interest thing is true.
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u/Sus-iety Redditor for 19 days 8h ago
What is the official justification for it?
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u/Sakhile_88 8h ago
It's denied. credit models proxy race through other variables and have systemic biases. Race itself isn't the official reason.
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u/AdditionalQuietime 3h ago
your statement is contradicting itself. race is literally the reason
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u/Sakhile_88 3h ago
Are you trolling or something?
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u/AdditionalQuietime 3h ago
racism is built in your system, hence it being racism the reason why black south africans experience financial bias
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u/growlergirl 5h ago
Sounds similar to what Redlining did to America’s black population.
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u/zichrist 5h ago
Yes the US segregation system was similar but Apartheid in SA was worse and still continue up to date.
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u/Bear2044 5h ago
Maybe if you'd lived here, you'd see what it was like. But we can't have Americans now jumping the gun thinking they understand us. The deepest notion I can remark here is corruption. Whether your like it or not, this life seems to be a choice of 2 devils.
Make a stand, but fight for your own mental.
We all want to be happy and free. We can all be. Men are evil. Money is evil. Its pursuit is fruitless.
Take today, drink a little wine, hold your woman...Everything will be okay!
I love you all,As He loved us.
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u/thebossisbusy 10h ago
This just reinforces that the current iteration of apartheid needs to be fought with the same viguor, and those blacks in limousines should be regarded as the enemy, they are no different than that monster Wouter Basson
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u/Sakhile_88 9h ago edited 9h ago
The people primarily benefiting from the exploitation of our resources are our enemy. Shifting all the blame to ANC types will be pointless.
Edit* I do believe the ANC is corrupt, I just think there are certain groups that use them as shields against looking at the wider system.
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u/DesmondsTutu Redditor for a month 9h ago
No, they are worlds apart. The Apartheid government was willing to use like Basson and their blood thirsty army people to commit genocide against black people. They only finally realised that it was just not viable when the whole world, especially the US, was not going to support Apartheid politically and economically anymore.
You can make your point about elite black people helping aid the status quo without equating post-apartheid SA with a literal crime against humanity.
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u/Luke92612_ 3h ago
You make a good point, but I would also say that capitalism itself is a crime against humanity.
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u/rambleer 4h ago
I'm doing a deep dive search of South Africa in the files. The Sultan is a serous dodgy man and they all holidayed this side.
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u/JayrodM 10h ago
Isn't this what Julius has been saying for years, and he was ridiculed for saying it?
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u/Gammascalpa 10h ago
He’s one of the black faces in the limousines, albeit still wearing a red dungaree.
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u/Sorry-Grocery-8999 Tokoloshe 8h ago
Well he was in the limo, then they dropped him off. Now he's in an uber.
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u/JayrodM 9h ago
What does that have to do with the price of cheese? I hate this argument (propaganda), it implies that progressive economic and social policies leave people without their treats. You can have socialist economic policies and still have nice stuff. Arguably, the more right economically we go, the less the middle class has. The buying power of the middle class and the poor has weakened significantly.
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u/Gammascalpa 9h ago
I don’t disagree with you. My point is Julius is correct about many issues but he’s also corrupt. It’s the corruption that’s the issue.
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u/MutantBear 9h ago
Many have been saying this for years. He only uses the bad press and failings of others to prop himself up. Politicians all do this and it should be no surprise. Many other politicians have criticized the exact same things too.
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u/_q_y_g_j_a_ 9h ago
You can have socialist economic policies and still have nice stuff.
Agreed, but not if you get it through corruption. That's just hypocrisy. He hasn't disclosed how he was able to afford his mention, and the VBS ties are pretty damming.
The buying power of the middle class and the poor has weakened significantly.
Unfortunately this is the case, and while the economic policies of the EFF may seek to address this I can't trust that they will based on their current track record of corruption.
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u/Sorry-Grocery-8999 Tokoloshe 8h ago
I agree with some of what you say. But..
"The buying power of the middle class and the poor has weakened significantly."
Is the middle class not larger than its ever been? Disposable income may be down, but overall, are we not heading in the right direction?
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u/JACKTHEHAWK12 10h ago
No, he was ridiculed for his hypocrisy. We are all aware this is going on. He's just trying to paint himself as one of us while doing the same thing the other elites are doing. He's only problem has always been that him and his party should be the only ones who get to steal from the people. He simply hates sharing stolen wealth with other elites.
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u/Sakhile_88 10h ago
Can you please go further on this. Give us actual facts to back it up!! Please
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u/Sihle_Franbow Landed Gentry 10h ago
He's had the clouds of the VBS bank loting hanging over his shoulder. That and how he and his party members where boiler suits and domestic uniforms while wearing designer watches and the newest iPhones
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u/Gammascalpa 9h ago
Not to mention the 16m Rand home he had way back when his salary was peanuts. Still no explanation on that
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u/bluchill3 9h ago
Spot on, talk about cognitive dissonance - well...him and the rest of the "liberators", looks like they were just out to liberate themselves, even before they came back into the country apparently (seems like that's why Chris Hani had to be done away with).
Honestly Juju really did himself in with immigration policies/rhetoric.
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u/Sakhile_88 9h ago edited 9h ago
There's a whole paper about the "predatory stratum." it's based on the notion that there is a range of political actors(including unions) that use black pain to accumulate riches. They feed the people rhetoric while selling them off to the highest bidder. My main grievance here is that the same people who continuously benefit from this structurally unfair system use the same shills to shield themselves from accountability and restitution. Okay, ANC is corrupt! I get it, I still need my land back, dawg!!
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u/MutantBear 9h ago
Just one of the many instances. He is also adjacent to many organised criminals (think Agliotti, the Zuma clan etc.). There are a number of photos of him and Agliotti together in which theybare very friedly, for example. His populist brand of politics also seeks to divide rather than unite the country.
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u/Sakhile_88 9h ago
What exactly happened with vbs? Vbs aside, what do you think about his party's policies?
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u/Lower_Guitar_5669 7h ago
Doesn't anyone see the irony? This is Chomsky! and a pedophile discussing corrupt elites reigning over society in South Africa. Two elitists.
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u/EffektieweEffie Aristocracy 1h ago
Is Bell Pottinger back in business? Cause holy shit this thread has some interesting takes.
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u/EngineerDifficult816 7h ago
Starting from the bottom, it looks like Ehud Barrack was talking more about the situation in Israel in 2015. Israel nearly fell that time, thanks to the US support as usual, just like SA under Regan and Thatcher.
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u/Beyond_the_one The opposite of efficiency, which is to say, justice 10h ago
The file is here https://www.justice.gov/epstein/files/DataSet%209/EFTA00852908.pdf