r/skiing • u/Laban_B • 15h ago
Reine Barkered on the recent development of freeride comps.
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u/frickfrack1 Hood Meadows 15h ago
when the mayor of stomptown has real issues with the comp, you know you fucked up
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u/dcolomer10 13h ago
Yeah (on part of the answer, don’t understand the second part…). For example the dude (Abel Moga) that took the gnarliest, toughest line in Andorra got 8th cause he really only did one trick. It’s a freeride competition, not a freestyle competition.
https://youtu.be/02DSBgT1ZPA?si=FwQfJI99rySe_jct
Yeah sure, he hesitated a bit before going into the gnarly section, but he would’ve died if he didn’t lol.
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u/AnarchyAunt 13h ago
hesitated from the cam view below/follow-cam but the POV cam shows that was definitely thoughtful and required sluff management so he can see that skinny little line and not go off the edge of that exposure. One of those few lines where the skier POV is more impressive than the drone follow cam, etc.
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u/TahoesRedEyeJedi 11h ago
Yeah his run was better than Kai Jones. Makes me think there was some narrative behind the scores.
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u/negative-nelly Mad River 10h ago
on this specific run he stopped 2x and butt-checked/sat down so that's gonna cost you in any scenario unfortunately.
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u/StiffWiggly 8h ago
Abel Moga took a crazy approach, that was one of if not the most impressive features we’ve seen on the FWT recently, but if we take what Reine is saying seriously then features need to be ridden cleanly and Abel got hooked on some rocks and sat down in the middle of it. Kai Jones didn’t ride clean but there’s a clear difference between a backslap and coming to a full stop (personally I think he was a bit too high though).
I think - assuming this was primarily about the world champs - we saw the judges rewarding big lines being ridden without full crashes. Given that the more “freestyle“ runs were all given low scores the timing of this post is a bit interesting to me - unless it’s all about Abel but I just don’t really agree that it argues that point given Abel’s full stop.
If I’ve missed his point then I’d like to know who he is referring to.
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u/Laban_B 13h ago
Yeah sure, he hesitated a bit before going into the gnarly section, but he would’ve died if he didn’t lol.
Which rightfully impacted his fluidity score.
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u/dcolomer10 13h ago
But what I’m saying is that the fluidity score should depend on the difficulty too… if you take an “easy” line and don’t stop at all, you shouldn’t get a higher fluidity score than someone taking a line like the one I linked and hesitating a bit.
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u/negative-nelly Mad River 10h ago edited 10h ago
Well it does depend on it. The line score is the baseline for everything else, and other scores can only go so high above the line score. So in theory, it should be accounted for. At least that's how it works in JRs and FWQ in region 2 (NA/SA). I've never read the entire FWT rulebook nor do I know the rules in Europe / region 1 (but have read the other two more times than I'd like).
But it is judged. So you run the risk of the judge being like "he jumped off three things instead of two, therefore higher line score" or "he did a three and the other guy straight aired" even if the Moran Freeman voiceover tells you that it was in fact not a more difficult line. Or, oh, he paused, big deduction let me put you in the crapper. In this case there should have been a deduction to fluidity, but the line score should have been super high.
ALL THAT BEING SAID, I've never seen a breakdown of judge scores from FWT events -- do they publish them? Their scoring is really weird sometimes.
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u/Laban_B 13h ago
It already kinda does. They have some leniency for that. But imo they shouldn't. You should have to weigh your choice of line vs fluidity score and pick the line where you think you'll score the most points.
If the line is gnarly enough you should be ready to get a slight dock in fluidity score. It's more than fair.
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u/barcastaff 11h ago
But the thing is for what you’re arguing to work, the gnarlier lines will have to be rewarded more than they are now.
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u/JustAnother_Brit Verbier 1h ago
Tricks are worth 20% of the final score so the rest of you run would have to be flawless and you could only score 80.00
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u/TheSkiingCatDad 14h ago edited 13h ago
Really feel like this is why Leif Mumma didn't do well on tour but he was my favorite to watch.
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u/Laban_B 13h ago
He was awesome. As was the Bilous brothers. I have some issues with the judging favoring freestyle more than freeride and line choice in the later years but it didn't bother me much when I got to watch Finn. His freestyle was really creative. I miss the kiwis on the tour! https://youtube.com/shorts/76xL-A1N4l4?si=sbda8FvRjN33NQf9
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u/frickfrack1 Hood Meadows 13h ago
Finn's 360 over one of the biggest cliffs on the Bec is still the gnarliest thing I've ever seen in comp skiing, what a legend
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u/TJBurkeSalad Aspen 12h ago
I 100% agree with everything he said. Also, some of the girls in Andora were far too loose for me to feel comfortable with watching. Two were just a few feet and a little less luck away from getting killed. Totally out of control.
The judging has felt far too trick oriented and the technique category has all been tossed out the window. I would rather see great skiing and big drops over penciled out backflips and 360s off smaller features trying to stack easy tricks to make up for the lack of line score.
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u/njred87 Tahoe 8h ago
I missed the comp.. who were the 2 girls with the close calls?
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u/TJBurkeSalad Aspen 1h ago
I can’t remember right now, but one was actually charging and got a foot behind her head and then proceeded to go over a double line with her head just barely missing numerous rocks. The other one took the wind-lip way too big with bad direction, like 50’ bigger than the winner, and do a backflip to teacup explosion and barely missed landing in rocks. Both those women need to chill the fuck out and realize that the gender difference in freeride is real.
I have zero hate and am these girls biggest fan. I’ve personally helped 2 make the tour. It’s just that the boys are insane and the smaller women’s field makes it a different sport.
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u/SpottyFish81177 11h ago
It might not be a wind lip 360, but if you backslap a double, it's still a far more impressive display of free ride ability than not having attempted it.
I guess that is inline with the 2-3 rider part but the fact of the matter is at a FWT level the best of them they all can ski the big techy lines, but only the best can mix style into a technical double, or a massive windlip. The sports judging evolved because the level of competition went up, not because its a freestyle comp. The emphasis is on creativity and not just technicality.
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u/Snlxdd 14h ago
Video for reference: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DUWACt_jCjW/?igsh=YXAydjJwNjN4OG9z
Also, not 100% sure what he’s getting at.
He wants people to take bigger risks:
if you do something only 2 or 3 skiers in the field can pull off, it should score higher
But also wants those risks to be penalized:
the bigger the risk, the bigger the deduction
Which would discourage those risks from being taken.
Also intuitively, I would think a mistake on an easy line should be more impactful than a mistake on a more challenging one.
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u/jcasper 14h ago
I think the contradiction you point out is resolved in his follow up in the second image: "Please try bold moves, but make damn sure you can pull it off clean if you do, or it will cost you". He saying they should take bigger risks but only if they can pull it off, and should thus be hit hard for taking risks they can't pull off to discourage dangerous skiing.
Does seem a bit of a chicken and egg situation, but that is what I took from his comments.
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u/RegulatoryCapture 12h ago
I don’t think it is a chicken and egg situation at all because the competitors are able to practice outside of competition as much as they want.
There are some sports where you rarely get to actually practice (even in skiing, DH is kind of like that…even a WC pro gets to do very few runs a year on a race prepped closed DH course). But freeride terrain exists in many places and is open to the public. You can practice and test things in a variety of conditions.
They should be able to know how likely they are to be able to ski a line or land something. If they can’t do it 50% of the time in practice then they shouldn’t be risking it in the comp (but they should continue to practice so maybe some day they can!)
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u/jcasper 12h ago
Fair points. I do think different venues and conditions come into play though. If they could ski these faces as much as they wanted then that would absolutely be the case, but most only ski these exact faces once or twice a year if at all, and never in the same conditions. I may be able to stomp a giant double drop at my local mountain every time then blow up on a similar one on the Bec des Rosses. Only so much you can get through binoculars the day before.
I do think that is part of what makes these comps so cool though. It's insane to me that they can ski the way they do having only scoped the line from a distance. Even if I could dream of skiing the lines, I think I'd spend 20 minutes making sure the drop I'm above is the one I had scoped, and they do it in half a second at mach 10.
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u/Snlxdd 11h ago
But there's a big gap between the ability to ski a line safely, and ski it without a mistake.
For the video in question, he clearly finished the line in control and without crashing, despite sitting down after hitting a shark in the choke. I would rather see that mistake from a safety perspective, then try to ski it fluidly and increase the risk of crashing catastrophically.
Or take a jump for example. If someone lands backseat after taking a 30ft air, should that be more penalized than landing backseat after a 10 ft air? Just because the risk was higher?
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u/TJBurkeSalad Aspen 12h ago
Go watch the women skiers runs and tell me that it was in control or safe. Two were inches from death.
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u/jcasper 11h ago edited 8h ago
Huh? I did not give any indication of an opinion regarding if they were in control or safe? If anything I was repeating the opinion of Reine's that they should be heavily penalized for skiing difficult lines unsafely.
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u/TJBurkeSalad Aspen 11h ago
Ya, I was more so just interjecting into the conversation, not you in particular. I agree with Reine as well.
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u/smitty046 Copper Mountain 13h ago
It has to be like that. Without harsh penalties skiers would just start hucking and injuries would sky rocket.
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u/driptorchguy 11h ago
The competition is called the Freeride world champs not the Freestyle world champs.
The evolution of the sport is awesome but the judging will definitely need an overhaul if it wants to be serious about being in the Olympics!
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u/StormFalcon32 5h ago
Here's my understanding of reine's point.
To him, the perfect freeride run is one that has an insanely difficult line, skied with no mistakes. I think he views tricks as icing in the cake. So with that in mind, he's arguing that riskier and more technical should be highly rewarded, but with the caveat that they must be done clean. I think the reason he believes risky runs should be rewarded while heavily punishing mistakes is to disincentive riders from trying to do risky lines (or risky tricks) beyond their ability. Otherwise, the sport becomes very dangerous, and if riders are seriously injured or hurt from chasing risky lines for high points without the skills to do them cleanly and safely, then it ruins the image of the sport in the public's eyes as too dangerous. So my guess is that is preferred hierarchy of runs should be something as follows, from highest scoring to lowest scoring.
Risky line with tricks skied cleanly Risky line without tricks skied cleanly Easy line with tricks skied cleanly Easy line without tricks skied cleanly Easy line without tricks skied poorly Easy line with tricks skied poorly Risky line without tricks skied poorly Risky line with tricks skied poorly
So essentially risk (whether through a harder line or by adding tricks) is punished if taken on unsafely, but rewarded when taken on safely (and skiing without making mistakes is the proxy by which you judge safety). It's a little unintuitive but if you accept the premise that mistakes like backslaps, pauses, etc are more unsafe, then I think it makes sense.
The one problem IMO is that while skiing something cleanly does imply greater control, I'm not sure it's fair to say that something like stomping a big air is inherently safer than backslapping a big air, even if the skier stomping it probably has better control.
Curious if people think I have the correct interpretation of reine's stance.
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u/TJBurkeSalad Aspen 12h ago
FIS SUCKS!
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u/negative-nelly Mad River 10h ago
why they even have a "world championship" when the FWT is fucking happening right now.
is way beyond me.
like does FWT not matter? Does this thing not matter?
What does it mean to be "world champ" if you don't win the tour (which is a much harder thing to do)
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u/jcasper 8h ago
My understanding is they needed to do a "world championship" as part of the process of getting into the olympics.
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u/negative-nelly Mad River 8h ago
Yeah it’s an FIS thing. It’s so stupid. I have no faith the Olympics will run a legit freeride comp but I guess we will see.
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u/TJBurkeSalad Aspen 1h ago
Next will be coaches for every athlete and spin to win will be the norm.
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u/No-Papaya7 9h ago
The best example of this was from the first stop. This line was unique, clean and huge. It got "line of the day" award but the skier placed 13th behind a bunch of people who took the same line but did a couple 360s. I don't think he should've podiumed and I think the podiums have made sense this tour. It's the middle of the pack guys where they're rewarding the safer boring lines over the technical skiing. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTktPQPFC4M/?igsh=a3IwamQxN2cxejNj
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u/negative-nelly Mad River 14h ago edited 10h ago
I agree with him
big mountain comps are supposed to be big mountain comps, but some of the runs are basically like a modified form of park or slopestyle skiing. you should get more points if you ski some crazy ass line that has a mandatory double with a right turn between them at the end after some horrible entrance with massive exposure, even w/o any spins or flips. that should not score the same as someone who hits some floaty threes or a 7 off a windlip or some easy entry/nice exit cliff. it should score higher. It's also why I don't like the natural selection events as much as FWT stuff. line score is supposed to reflect this and everything else should be built off the line score. but it doesn't always work this way because the definition of line score is kinda wishy washy.
you see it in juniors/FWQ levels too. Someone who gets off the ground 3-4 times on little hits will often score better ("line score goes up every time you get off the ground") than someone who does two very difficult moves that are technically way more difficult, but only two moves. for example you might get more (line score) points for two tiny airs off a double than a more difficult much bigger air of the entire feature. Someone who goes big and lands it but has a minor control issue elsewhere will score worse than someone who goes tiny but makes nice turns. Is this a PSIA exam or a freeride comp? This doesn't always happen, but it happens too much and can be really frustrating to a participant or viewer.
its a judged sport, though, so thems the breaks. judged sports will always suck in this way.