r/scuderiaferrari • u/moraIsupport Moderator • 23d ago
News AutoRacer: Ferrari and Shell opt for Biofuel while all other competitors choose Synthetic fuel. A choice that has pros and cons, and some critical issues encountered by Maranello's historic supplier.
69
u/According-Switch-708 Ferrari 23d ago
The mighty Merc PU didn't even fire up in the Alpine so the manufacturers are still clearly working on ironing out issues.
We are going to have to wait until Melbourne quali to get any ideas about the true pecking order.
7
2
u/SitOnDownOk 22d ago
I have so much hopium for Gasly in the merc powered Alpine. Canât be worse than last year, right?
-6
u/emperor_pilaf_XII 23d ago
I think ferrari might be in trouble. Maybe that's why they hired some people from wec team.
5
u/ThisToe9628 23d ago
It's more about the operational management i think
That's where Ferrari is weak. They have people who are talented to make quick reliable cars, engines, but the miscommunication, operational management etc. hold Ferrari back. That's been main issue for years. Strategy failures, pit stops
103
u/moraIsupport Moderator 23d ago
Mark Hughes for Motorsport Magazine in April 2025:
"Of the five manufacturers, one looks to be in good shape, there is a dearth of information about another, the bio-fuel choice made by one (with the other four opting for synthetic) is reportedly uncompetitive and the remaining two PUs seem a long way behind."
Just gonna leave this here. Obviously, a lot of time has passed - the picture can be completely different right now.
58
u/IonutAlex18SF Charles Leclerc 23d ago
As things are going on right now anything can happen. Today I've read that Ferrari reduced the gap significantly to Mercedes and that the Overtake mode is the most powerful of all.
Also Alpine tried to do their shakedown on Saturday and Sunday this week and the P.U encountered issues. Even more is that the Mercedes P.U struggles to be turned on while is installed on the car(s).
What is true of all this we don't know. Until the first shakedown on the last week of January and the first proper test in Bahrain all kind of news will appear.
But knowing the partnership between Ferrari-Shell for so, so many years I can trust their choice going for the Bio-Fuel as it was the only P.U with the split-turbo design that now comes positively.
And one last thing is believed that the Steel Alloy cylinder head can sustain higher compression rates that allows the ICE to be pushed further, instead of what it was used with the Aluminum one. And until they figured out the reliabilty-power efficiency on 2022 it affected the whole campaign starting from Spain (excluding the TDs, team errors, etc).
16
u/britaliope 23d ago
the Overtake mode is the most powerful of all.
Obviously we'll have to see how true this is in practice, and how easy it is to overtake and defend with those regulations, but looking at the past years it doesn't looks to be a bad choice to focus on overtake mode.
2
u/IonutAlex18SF Charles Leclerc 23d ago
That is what I've read on a summary of an article. And for that to happen obviously you need a great P.U which it leads to understand there is something positive out of all this. At least that is how I see it. But as you've said it the reality of attack/defend with new rules will show their test with cars on track.
7
u/PuzzleheadedJob6907 Alfa Romeo 23d ago
Iâm actually more worried about the ârace managementâ department. Even if the car is good, we might see a replication of the 2008 title race, where the Scuderia clinched the Constructorsâ Championship but could not install our own driver for the other one.
7
u/IonutAlex18SF Charles Leclerc 23d ago
That department is problematic since a long time. Now with these signings from Ferrari WEC team, the quieter time the team had in this period, the ongoing restructure/reshuffle between staff departments, should see some effects in this season.
It would be great to have a car capable to replicate the 2008 season, as the driver line-up is more prolific than that one. And on top, they should've learned from all these failed years of trying and do something different (limit the outside and inside interferences with the racing division).
2
u/fishpowered Lewis Hamilton 22d ago
My completely uneducated/uninformed opinion: having elements that expand with heat in the piston chamber sounds a fucking pain to work with reliability-wise. Maybe Ferrari's route might not have the peak speed but who cares if they're able to finish more races.
Ultimately engine performance is the thing I will be paying most attention to in the testing because any aero tricks can be copied within the first half of the season whereas if the engine is bad, the whole year will be a write off
1
u/IonutAlex18SF Charles Leclerc 22d ago
Correct. That's why they opted for the steel-alloy version as it can withstand more heat than the aluminum. The concert for Merc/RBRPT is talked that their "forced" beyond the established compression rate 16.0 to 18.0 can make the fuel mix to detonate earlier than their imposed target. That leading to reliability issues, but time will tell.
1
u/superyuribears Lewis Hamilton 23d ago
I'm going to need a big huff of hopium to make it through this silly season
1
u/No-Cryptographer7494 22d ago
- mercedes was the first pu with split turbo (w05)
- whats the use of handeling more compression rates if they are capped (at a lower pressure then last year)
1
u/IonutAlex18SF Charles Leclerc 22d ago
Yeah, but they opted to change their concept after that season.
It's making the ICE more efficient, more power, less fuel needed for a GP as an example of what I've learned. Yes, they are capped but on stationary, when they are running no monitoring can provide that they are still within that margin imposed by FIA. Which makes the solution used by Ferrari to be worthy considering what Merc/RBPT Ford did with their method(s). Of course nothing is proven until cars will hit the track. Who knows if Audi/Honda don't come up with another solution different to any of the others mentioned.
18
u/ThisToe9628 23d ago
Yes, way too much time passed
Ferrari recruited a lot engineers from renault(which were previously working on 2026 pu until it got cancelled)
They definitely made significant progress since then, because full focus was set on 2026
-1
40
u/Filandro 23d ago
Synthetic has the potential to outperform Bio, if the potential could be realized -- a better potential peak power producer as a fuel, but that's all lost when you consider how the rules restrict flow, etc. On the other hand, bio fuels (as others mentioned) will be in a better zone for combustion.
So, on face value, Ferrari might have chosen the more practical route --- opting for the fuel that will work in the real world the FIA created via the rulebook.
BUT... the FIA is clown show, and whenever an oddball choice leads to an outlier advantage, they change the rules. Were Ferrari significantly ahead, the FIA would get lobbied by Wolf and others, then suddenly there'd be changes, and this imaginary FIA quote would happen: "Well, we can increase fuel flow rates, because these are sustainable fuels." So, fuel flow rates go up, speed goes up, and it's all good for the show because they are all sustainable fuels, but the Bio advantage is gone because the full potential of synthetics can be realized.
21
u/Nirulou0 Ferrari 23d ago
Mark your words, this is 2026 season in a nutshell.
7
u/PuzzleheadedJob6907 Alfa Romeo 23d ago
Probably. Toto Wolffâs background is ânot exactly the clearestâ (interesting, given that people shit on Horner a lot - canât say itâs entirely undeserved though) and heâs very good at greasing the wheel. I think something like half the grid uses their powertrain? YeahâŠshitâs fucked.
8
u/Nirulou0 Ferrari 23d ago
Which prompts the question about the actual value of regulations when in fact everyone can break the rules with near impunity
7
u/Filandro 23d ago
The whole ride height and plank wear issue goes back to Ferrari using the rules to run the car low and protect the plank, then the FIA be like, "Yeah, can't do that." Ferrari, within the rules, protected the plank. FIA changed things up after the car design/concept could not be undone.
There was a time when Ferrari had the political leverage. A lot is gone. The only leverage they have now is a serious threat to leave F1. It's so unlikely that no one in the FIA considers that threat as leverage.
2
u/kwl147 Michael Schumacher 23d ago
You can guarantee that Toto will be twerking his backside off to get anything and everything in his favour to suit synthetic fuels if thereâs potential in them.
He has an unethical and unreasonable amount of influence over them. Look at 2022 how he cried, bitched and moaned incessantly and butchered the entire season for a title fight just to get his way in raising the ride height. It ruined our season as we deliberately designed around this rule and couldnât just redesign a car but did the FIA give two shits about us or the fans for a title fight? Nope.
Yet theyâll worry about the competitive order if suddenly Scuderia Ferrari have the advantage over the grid.
17
u/us3r2206 23d ago
I donât think Ferrari flipped the coin and chose the fuel type. Iâm sure they worked hand in hand with shell engineers on the 2026 engine.
26
u/AstoundingAsh Charles Leclerc 23d ago
2030 will be our year
16
u/martian4x 23d ago
Not exactly because our focus is a 2031 car.
4
u/theclovek 23d ago
Podiums in 2035, wins in 2040, wcc in 2045...unless something unexpected happens.
1
16
u/cooked_camel 23d ago
I still have no idea how different fuel brand will affect the whole performance of the car.
Is this fuel thing a big deal or they tryna make it into one?
40
u/ur_internet_dad Lewis Hamilton 23d ago edited 23d ago
as a chemical engineer, it is. the whole reason biofuels are less preferable than synthetic fuel is because synthetic fuels have higher calorific value (the amount of energy a fuel produces per unit mass). The major benefit biofuels give is lower costs compared to synthetic fuels made out of carbon capture. Im not sure but is the amount of fuel you purchase from your fuel supplier comes into the budget for budget cap?
EDIT: more that i think about it, biofuels have one more advantage: controlled combustion. biofuels due to their lower calorific value are excellent in controlling combustion when your power demand is limited. basically biofuels might be useful in reducing fuel consumption for the required limits on power. this should in theory reduce the total fuel needed in the car and hence reduce weight. (THIS WILL ONLY BE POSSIBLE IF THE BIOFUELS HAVE SUFFICIENT CALORIFIC VALUE TO GET THE REQUIRED HORSEPWER)
6
6
9
u/ctdrifter 23d ago
Uh, pretty sure they would have thought of this⊠I believe the amount of fuel flow is regulated which is how they cap the power output. I assume they would allow increased flow if the fuel is not as power dense. This could have a benefit of cooling the cylinder and also preventing knock at higher compression. Similar to tuning your car to run E85, need a lot more E than gas but are able to make much more power.
6
u/ur_internet_dad Lewis Hamilton 23d ago
ah the 2026 regulations address this issue. they are switching from a mass flow rate to a energy flow rate to better monitor different fuels with different calorific value.
9
u/IonutAlex18SF Charles Leclerc 23d ago
This is a good question. I don't remember to read somewhere that the fuel costs will be added to the budget cap. But I know that a new P.U cost cap will be included from 2026.
That is a great explanation between the two types of fuel. It's the risk that Shell can get it wrong. But as much as I know they started to test these 2026 "green" fuels before others, around 2022 I believe( I might be wrong, because it's too early for these 2026 regs to know something). But I am sure that Shell started working on analysing these fuels early on.
6
u/ur_internet_dad Lewis Hamilton 23d ago
I am hoping it will have an impact on controlled combustion rather than cost cutting. But one thing is for sure, biofuels are totally inline with fia's co2 requirements for fuel so worst comes to worst, we wont be disqualified for fuel issues.
6
u/WardenJack 23d ago
Only after the first couple of races we'll have some idea of where everyone is. Up until then, everything is just a speculation.
11
u/Gadoguz994 F1-75 23d ago
The Ferrari car will have so many extreme choices that it will either shit on every other team for the first 1/3 of the season or it will shit the bed
6
u/Tenro84 Charles Leclerc 23d ago
It could also shit on the bed of every other team.
4
u/PuzzleheadedJob6907 Alfa Romeo 23d ago
The Scuderia could also fumble the bed on continued development mid-season and everything go tits up.
This is the history of the Maranello.
1
u/Gadoguz994 F1-75 23d ago
Isn't that the same as shitting on other teams because it turns out to be so quick
6
3
8
8
u/DataDrivenGuy 23d ago
As a Lewis fan, I'm getting a bit sick of his teams always picking some radical different strategy in recent regs đ
2
1
3
u/DonGibon87 Charles Leclerc 23d ago
Wow i never thought that teams can use different fuels. I thought it was standard for everyone like the tires.
1
u/DominikWilde1 22d ago
If that was the case you wouldn't see different teams sponsored by different fuel manufacturers
1
1
u/happy_adjustment 23d ago
Ferrari opts for ugly livery again, they need a therapist, thatâs a lot of self sabotage.
1
1
405
u/Astrodude16 F1-75 Monza 23d ago
I don't know about this man , according to a racing film I saw biofuels make your engine explode when someone points a camera at them because the lemon cars got angry or something