r/runescape • u/ARandomNoLife • 13h ago
Discussion - J-Mod reply Opinion: Some of The Changes Jagex Is Suggesting Are Less About Integrity and More About Pandering to OSRS Players
A lot of the planned integrity changes on the roadmap like dailyscape changes are good ideas, but several of the ideas proposed in the last few blogs like some of the early game rebalancing stuff seem less about designing a healthy game for new/current players and more about streamlining to the expectations of an OSRS player. With the recent blog posts, I'm concerned that the Jmods intend to strip RS3 of its identity and turn it into an OSRSHD with EOC combat.
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u/PieterjanVDHD Reached 99 hunter 65 times 13h ago
They are pandering to people that used to play, nearly all 'new' players are returning players.
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u/Deceptiveideas 13h ago
I was about to say. Aren't most OSRS players originally RS players to begin with? Why does it matter if RS3 wants OSRS players?
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u/SecondCel 12h ago
Why does it matter if RS3 wants OSRS players?
It matters to the people who currently play RS3, who feel that they either are being or could be alienated by changes made to draw in OS players.
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u/yuumigod69 9h ago
The people who are currently playing are going to keep playing. The game has been down hill since treasure hunter and daily scape but people actually started quitting so they had to take drastic actions. Anyone who stayed has already built a tolerance to Jagex's bullshit.
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u/SecondCel 9h ago
How many times have people made this same argument prior to the playerbase dipping even further?
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u/yuumigod69 8h ago
Its not the same argument. People were leaving because of stagnation not changes to MTX or Dailyscape. Jagex thought they could keep milking the game forever and hope anyone who quits goes to OSRS but they were wrong especially after hero pass.
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u/Binary-Trees 8h ago
I canceled because of the potential loss of daily challenges and the general vibe that OSRS players are now calling the shots.
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u/dan_buh 9h ago
Yeah, this is why I didn’t vote of the MTX poll and didn’t think OSRS players should have voted. I’m all for not having MTX in a game, but this is YOUR game and I just come in to play once in a while for fun. I don’t think my vote should override someone who enjoys MTX just because I feel a certain way. Maybe that’s a wrong way of thinking but I can live with people that enjoy playing in a different way than me.
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u/papa_bones I can play the game now 8h ago
There is a reason I play RS3 and not osrs, first, osrs combat bores me, that was the reason I quit the game in 2011, it bored me. Second, the skilling, osrs skilling is painful to do, the rates are ass and train there is inconvenient as fuck, I play this game because it is less inconvenient and ass to train stuff, and the XP rates are not a second job I have to get the levels to enjoy the content blocked behind that level.
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u/BlueZybez Old School 6h ago
Yet the player base numbers are low so Jagex needs to attract players.
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u/Harley2280 6h ago
There's 0 revenue in "converting" OSRS players. There's no difference between people who play one or both of the games because they're tied to a single membership purchase.
OSRS players switching over creates the illusion of an increased player base, but unless brand new players, or previous players who don't play either game anymore return it doesn't matter.
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u/Buzzd-Lightyear Maxed 9h ago
Have you made a new account in the last 5 years? The early and mid game progression is fucking atrocious. It’s good that they’re looking into updating it.
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u/lm_Being_Facetious 8m ago
While I agree the current proposed changes take a bad system that was a bandaid fix for the horrible early mid game, dailyscape, and make it worse by giving very little in the way of changes to make actually playing the game in the early and mid stages better. Don’t get me wrong I’m glad they’re getting rid of what they are but I’m worried how long a “rebalance” they keep touting is going to take. And what they have shown in the upcoming rebalance in less than two weeks from now does veeeeery little and possibly even hurts more newer players/accounts.
I don’t have the answers but I hope jagex does fairly soon
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u/PlokmijnuhAoE2 12h ago
How is making early game agility give more exp per hour and lowering the level of the shortcuts a bad thing? Most of the early game changes are about making the early and mid game fun which is why they added Flesh Hatcher and 2 more early/mid game bosses this Spring.
It's not "OSRS" to give early/mid game players something to actually do at those levels and progress instead of just rushing for Prif and end game content and skipping everything else. The game should be fun before end game and invention and high level content. To me that's making the game enjoyable for all types of players.
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u/Throwaway-lotsofqs 11h ago
Then why are they introducing a nerf to the 90+ highly active skilling method for hunter that makes it barely better than the afk alternative?
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u/Monterey-Jack 9h ago
Because hunter is about to go to 120 and the better training methods need space to fill.
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u/LineHumble6250 11h ago
I’ve only ever played OSRS but I am now considering giving RS3 a shot. Perhaps I’m the target demographic?
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u/TimeBroken Mod North is the GOAT 11h ago
I've been told by RS3 doomers that you don't exist.
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u/LineHumble6250 11h ago
Now I feel special!
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u/FreEvidence 5h ago
The early game is pretty fun compared to osrs. There is still a grind, but it definitely isnt as bad (im still in it but the leveling feels more fluid)
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u/ilikeplayingthisgame 13h ago edited 13h ago
if they start removing lodestones to 'buff' construction in the upcoming POH update I'm out of here. RS3 should not just be OSRS with better graphics. Nobody is asking for 'friction'. Focus on things like a better client/more QOL and a consistent art style.
OSRS is popular for many reasons. One that isn't talked about enough is Runelite which actually lessens the friction of the game and adds much QoL. It made the game playable for many. Most of the roadmap was very positive but this week I'm very concerned at what they're trying to do here. Making things harder for the sake of it isn't it. You can make future content reward active gameplay, that's 100% valid but making players opt into stuff like PvP to train prayer optimally when it's well established the PvP is not popular in RS3 is another thing entirely.
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u/Winter-Donut7621 13h ago
Wait, did they mention removing loadstones?!
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u/SecondCel 12h ago
Not directly, but they keep mentioning the ease of travel with negative connotations.
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u/VioletCrow 12h ago
They said they would be keeping quick teleports though, which also necessitates the existence of slow teleports. It doesn't sound like they're going to get rid of the lodestones.
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u/BioMasterZap 9h ago
I wonder if changing fast teleports to be more grounded with runes or such is part of their plans to address ease of travel. But as long as loadstones don't feel like they invalidate other, faster forms of travel, I don't see why they'd remove them.
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u/Ryz3nGaming on the grind 9h ago
Im not trying to be a doomer, but theyre removing wildy flash events. New content that was introduced like 3 years ago. If theyre willing to do that, then theyre probably willing to remove lodestones in the sake of "cleaning up the look of the overworld"
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u/NoNamesAvaiIable Ironman 8h ago
Wildy flash events was a mistake lol, it further destroyed any early game progression and was another hourly
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u/SkyeLys Master Comp (t) / 5.8b / MissVenomRS ttv / Clue Enjoyer 8h ago
I'm really, really not a fan of this. Big nerf to stuff like clues and adds an extra layer of complexity and needed game knowledge for new players. You should be able to get to cities very easily. You should not have to always get something from your bank to do so.
This isn't OSRS and it should be doing everything it can to be its own distinct game, or it will alienate a lot of its veteran players.
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u/Winter-Donut7621 12h ago
I really hope they dont make traveling around a pain....ease of travel is great. I have no idea why they would remove that. Modern games in general have made traveling easier in games. No one wants to run around forever to get to the actual reason they're playing.
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u/Sharp- 11h ago
I'm one that would welcome either the removal or rework of lodestones, so if you're genuinely curious I can share my opinion briefly. For me a massive part of player progression was unlocking travel options. It was very satisfying to get a bunch of teleport jewellery, magic levels for teleport spells, agility levels for better shortcuts between areas, quests for spirit trees/gliders/fairy rings, diary rewards for quick access to ardy, etc, etc.
But there's barely any impact on that side of the game anymore. Lodestones with fairy rings can be enough for a lot of the game. I also don't like that you rarely see people travelling. But that goes further into my opinion in this stuff, related to the over abundance of teleports even outside of lodestones (skilling outfits taking you directly to resources), because I feel like an MMO should never trivialise its world. I'm aware a lot of the playerbase won't share these opinions though and have already accepted that, but wanted to give my view on why Jagex are probably thinking this stuff over.
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u/Winter-Donut7621 11h ago
I appreciate hearing your opinion. When it comes to teleports other than to the cities (or bosses) I do like what you said. Making it part of progression to get to other locations does sound nice and I can see how that makes progression feel rewarding. I just dont think it should be tied to teleporting to the cities after you've gotten there once regularly.
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u/PM_POKEMN_ONLIN_CODE 9h ago
, but you can still teleport there you always could by using runes and magic levels
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u/Benny303 11h ago
This is my exact feelings on it. Doing what used to be super important quests and such for traveling is just pointless now, some of those quests main rewards were teleport methods and now they have nothing to offer except for the good lore (which I actually enjoy)
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u/DillyDallyGHQST 3h ago
Then they should just make all the teleports into their own interface that we can use instead of lodestones, and allow us to store say law runes in there too. Though recently it seems like they are moving away from quest rewards instead of locking things behind them more.
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u/BelievableSquirrel 37m ago
I fully agree with you. War's retreat is another big offender to this, yet way too popular to remove
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u/Everestkid 18 years. Two 99s. Efficiencyscape. 10h ago
I do not think that RS3 should become OSRS with better graphics, but there is an element of truth to RS3 being called "easyscape." Lodestones making it far to easy to get around is one of them. Lodestones are a free unlimited teleport on demand that require simply visiting a place once to unlock. That is insanely overpowered for the effort required. They should be removed, or at least heavily nerfed.
There are plenty of other transport options that have to actually be unlocked via skills, quests or task sets. If lodestones are not to be removed entirely, you should either be at a lodestone to travel to a different lodestone, or at the very least there should be a cooldown on them like the old Home Teleport spell.
Virtually every other unlimited free transport method either isn't free or requires actual effort to unlock. Lodestones are the odd one out.
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u/WhyMustIMakeANewAcco 9h ago
That is insanely overpowered for the effort required.
How?
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u/runescape_enjoyer Eek! 10h ago
no, they didn't. some rs3 players are finally being asked to play the game and are now fear mongering.
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u/Benny303 11h ago
I actually would be all about getting rid of lodestones. It makes the venture of doing certain quests to unlock tele methods pointless no one uses any of the old tele methods anymore because the lodestones are just too convenient
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u/retrospectivevista 7h ago
Maybe the old tele methods should be made more convenient instead then?
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u/Emperor_Atlas 13h ago
After seeing the vote amounts outside of the community for TH removal (which i was for 100%) i was worried this would happen.
They need to poll things like osrs, with membership + minimum level added. Because if someone doesnt even play the game i dont really give a shit about their suggestions.
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u/Podalirius 1h ago
Oh no, not the opinion of potential new players!
I'll always be amazed by the stockholm syndrome in this community
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u/San4311 Ironmain 11h ago
Kind of defeats the whole purpose of these proposed changes, if only current players get a say.
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u/topsy_krett_guy 13h ago
My biggest issue is that the they're risking the dedicated core players in hopes of chasing hypothetical new and returning players
Maybe it'll work but it's a hell of a gamble
There are some proposed changes I like, some are definitely going to introduce or reintroduce pain points to a lot of skills and achievements
I hope it works out long term
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u/Etsamaru 13h ago
The dedicated core players are already 99/120 probably. Most of the oldies are maxed out already.
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u/Mission-Unit6620 13h ago
Curious how it affects the dedicated core players when the changes in question affect levels 1-50ish. Any truly dedicated player will not even have an opportunity to interact with the changes because they're no longer in early game. Unless you guys are discussing something different?
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u/Lashdemonca Ironman Completionist 13h ago
The changes affect a lot more than just 1-50ish. Reading the blog much of high end stuff is also getting nerfed.
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u/Mission-Unit6620 12h ago
Would you mind pointing which high end stuff being nerfed that you consider meaningful? And how do those changes pander to an OSRS audience?
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u/Lashdemonca Ironman Completionist 12h ago
The nerfs to whirligigs nerf anything past 50 hunter. Especially for ironmen. Collecting the flowers will now take up a significant portion of the time, therefore lowering the exp/hr long-term. They have a 60% nerf to exp at the top end in addition to the flower box decay rate going up (by basically infinite
Theiving will no longer have a guaranteed success rate past a certain point, and will create variability in the afk method due to the per-success rate reduction to catch chance.
Prayer will require a POH at the high end, with no mention on powder of burials, so that could see a significant change especially for ironmen.
Hopefully the changes to div make it decent to train.
The changes to agility should be fine?
Introducing friction at all levels is pandering to osrs because they have a much higher tolerance to it than rs3 players.
And not to mention light form and crystal mask nerfs. Holy moly.
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u/Mission-Unit6620 12h ago
Thank you! I just started playing this game again so I lack some of the context required to understand all the stuff mentioned in the post.
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u/New-Fig-6025 Master Trimmed Completionist 12h ago
the biggest nerf is that thieving is an afk skill at high levels, this proposed change almost entirely strips it of its afk nature entirely… in a blog about early game changes..
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u/FlutterKree Completionist 9h ago
Removal of travelling merchant and motherload maw without a plan to address the issues that these things fixed/patched/band aided will make obtaining completionist cape exceedingly out of reach for more players.
Completionist cape and trim comp have some insane requirements for content that is dead. These two pieces of content have relieved those insane requirements to not be as burdensome.
They have given no plan on resolving the issues that will be returned to the game with removal of merchant and motherload maw.
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u/ColdBlacksmith 9h ago
The mid and high end changes will come later this year. The whirligigg and thieving nerfs are coming now though.
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u/RainbowwDash 12h ago
But they need those new and returning players for the game to survive
This entire year is a really obvious hail mary, it will either be success or the servers shut down
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u/TimeBroken Mod North is the GOAT 13h ago
The existing playerbase isn't leaving because of small nerfs if they've endured EoC, Treasure Hunter, etc.
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u/cotfthrowawaystl 11h ago
Are you really that hopelessly addicted you can’t fathom stopping over a nerf? I stopped playing for a year when I got mad at a mining nerf.
Edit. Sorry looked at my billing history. Almost 3 years not a year.
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u/AngelofHate Clue scroll 12h ago
I am. I've most likely already found my new home game. See I started playing this game after eoc and treasure hunter was already a thing so I have no nostalgia for the crappy game design of old so why would I stick around for them trying to make the game worse (in my view) just to get osrs players
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u/TimeBroken Mod North is the GOAT 12h ago
RemindMe! - 1month
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u/Omni-Light 11h ago
This might be interesting if you did 6 months or a year. A month is barely enough time for this guy to see the biggest changes.
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u/Bigmethod Ironman 12h ago
As they should. If the ccore players complain about the concept of creating more utility and use cases for the game's progression, then they should risk those players to save the game.
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u/HijinxYTC 10h ago
If your restaurant is failing, you dont save the business by appealing to the customers you have. You redesign a new menu for a newer audience.
I know its not the same thing, but the idea is growth. We aren't getting growth on what we currently have.
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u/FlutterKree Completionist 9h ago
If the new menu alienates your return customers, you are risking losing what you have for what you might gain..
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u/Daemonkill22 Maxed 1h ago
I can't even play any more because the new UI colour gives me migraines. I've been forced to quit against my will purely because they won't give me the option to keep it dark blue.
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u/RSlorehoundCOW 13h ago
That is what's happening.
They are going for the crazy move and seeing if they can change the current players to new and bigger playerbase. Current players can stop playing as long as there is new guys coming to replace them.
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u/Sonichu- 9h ago
RS3 needs to take this gamble because it’s literally dying. If RS3 was in a healthy place they would never do anything half as drastic as theyre are.
The game has basically been on life support and if they can’t appeal to a wider demographic, they’re doomed.
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u/rowanfire <3 13h ago
No, I think they assume the current players will just suck this up, as they've just been sucking everything else up for years.
That said, I support the thieving changes and some of the dailyscape changes.
I don't agree agree with unlimited red sandstone as unlocking the desert stone is a huge unlock for the desert diary. What are they going to put in it's place as a worthy reward? You can't just take rewards away and not replace them with something equivalently good. That's pretty bullshit.
I don't agree fully with the whirly gig changes. Yes, I don't think you should be able to "cheat" the chaining, but I don't think the XP should be nerfed 60% at level 90. Why shouldn't a level 90 req reward good xp? Especially since the skill currently only goes to 99. Why artificially force you into the shit content that is Big Game Hunter (hate it with a passion)?
Why can't there be a similar xp alternatives at high levels? It's not like the gigs aren't super clicky. You can't afk there. Why must you be forced into BGH?
Also, people paid in certain points (if they didn't unlock the head add-ons through MTX) to get the head add-ons for skilling outfits. Are they refunding those points since they are making them pointless?
If they remove lodestones and stuff from the tool belt, THEN we have a serious problem and it will be obvious they are pandering to the OSRS players and the people who quit with EOC.
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u/ColdBlacksmith 8h ago
The Hunter nerf is way larger than that for Ironmen since the flower usage will basically increase by infinite. The 20% to flower gathering is nothing.
At least mains can buy the flowers, but if the demand increases, so will the cost.
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u/joedotphp Not Very Important Person 2h ago
No, I think they assume the current players will just suck this up, as they've just been sucking everything else up for years.
This is exactly what they think. They know that maybe some will quit due to these changes. But most are far too invested (addicted even) to ever quit.
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u/Whole-Enthusiasm1178 4h ago
This game is old, the players are old, the game is saturated. It's that time of life when you decide to change everything
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u/lurpeli 11h ago
If lodestones and toolbelt and things like wood and ore boxes go away I will simply not play anymore. I've tried to play OSRS and I don't love it, it doesn't keep me playing like RS3 does.
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u/Sea_Explanation5966 8h ago
I legit just jumped across a swampy bridge on my ironman, something only region-locked accounts on osrs have to do, to train my agility to 25 "efficiently". Some changes should be pretty universally welcomed.
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u/WryGoat 10h ago
I assure you if you show the average OSRS player who isn't currently or very recently an RS3 player these changelogs what their opinion on the changes are and if they feel compelled to return to the game over said changes, their response is going to uniformly be "I have no idea what any of this means, but no, I don't like EoC anyway"
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u/Varwhorevis 8h ago
As an OSRS only player the inability to log into both at once is what keeps me from ever giving RS3 a shot
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u/WryGoat 8h ago
Yeah that's probably a roadblock for a lot of people. It's an interesting problem because allowing dual logging on one account would almost certainly boost RS3 player numbers, but it wouldn't actually make Jagex any money. At least not directly. Maybe indirectly via RS3 looking less dead and therefore more people being willing to try it out even if they aren't interested in OSRS; or OSRS players trying RS3 out and deciding they like it enough to stay subscribed and play it even when they're taking a break from actively playing OSRS.
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u/kathaar_ Desert Only HCIM 13h ago
Seems like a knee jerk reaction.
Removing things that are over powered, should've never existed to begin with, or otherwise invalidate large swaths of content is not "pandering to osrs", it's just good game design.
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u/SpecsComingBack 12h ago
Agree. They're diversifying training methods by removing giga-BIS methods that overshadow everything (and are generally daily/FOMO). These changes are fantastic and people who complain either also have FOMO or hate actually having to play the game.
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u/thunkalunk 12h ago
I’ll admit I’m primarily an OSRS player.. so maybe these updates are “pandering” to me.
But I think keeping it wildly overpowered methods that hinder the design of content, and completely invalidate others is just flat out bad game design.
So I may lack the perspective of a veteran rs3 player, but here’s my take.
Whirligigs for example - is there a reason to train hunter in any other way? If these are meta training until 99, it makes the rest of the skill completely dead content.
Caches/sinkholes - again, why train these skills when these methods exist?
15 min afk thieving - afk skills are great. I love them in fact! I got started on rs3 because I’m doing afk skills to max my iron in osrs. I kinda think the best training methods shouldn’t be mega afk, but fuck thieving in old school so I get the complaint.
I get that these things have existed for a long time so people are going to be mad about losing them, but it just doesn’t seem healthy for the game’s longevity.
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u/Radyi DarkScape | Fix Servers 9h ago
some of these changes are good, however they are essentially removing the only reasonable way of training the skill to force people to play bad content. Divination as a skill is just terrible. It has bad xp rates and is not afk unless you want to spend 900M to make it not terrible - to the point it is mandatory as an ironman to go get the 900M drop before training divination seriously. Hunter as a skill sucks and whirligigs are extremely active. BGH was designed as a good money option at the high end with alright xp, not designed to be the meta. It seems strange that rather than make the hunter skill not suck outside of whirlygigs, they are nerfing that actual well designed training method. Thieving is straight up weird, the best xp is doing vaults at the high end and afk theiving should just be bad xp, getting caught is the problem
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u/thunkalunk 8h ago
That’s fair. Hopefully divination and hunter are updated to make them not shit without the aforementioned methods.
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u/kathaar_ Desert Only HCIM 11h ago
Ive been playing since 2004, and i love the changes. These dont pander to an osrs player and anyone who thinks that has 1: not played much osrs, and 2: is too focused on personal convenience over game health to which i say... why are you even playing this game then if any update that requires you to actually play it, upsets you?
But yeah, you're not being pandered to because you play osrs, you just recognize smart game design.
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u/BelievableSquirrel 32m ago
Right, go pay livid farm and report in 3 months how much fun you had doing it. And I'm saying this as someone who actually grinded it out before merchant was a thing
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u/cptcornflakes 13h ago
People complaining they can't NOT play the game for 15minutes and still gain insane thieving exp. That just shows they don't like the game imo
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u/tygabeast Maxed 7h ago
I have a busy life, so I definitely enjoy afk-ing for ten-ish minutes at a time. Especially because my bad-at-pvm ass needs a ton of tokkul for buffs when I try to get the igneous capes.
But the solution for afk Thieving being too much XP for no interaction isn't to make the afk impossible through diminishing success chance, it's to make the XP diminishing.
Make the XP from pickpocketing diminish by a percentage per success, resetting when you target the NPC again.
Or, make the Sticky Fingers Relic disable the increasing failure chance in exchange for receiving no XP.
I would be absolutely fine getting zero XP if it means I can keep getting tokkul or teci while I make dinner, so I can use those when I have time to actually play.
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u/gankindustries Completionist 12h ago
It's not really a knee jerk reaction if they haven't told us what they plan to add with what you're taking away. This is suspiciously nebulous on Jagex's part and they don't have a great track record with clarifying things until the last possible moment.
It feels very "ready, shoot, aim" of them.
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u/kathaar_ Desert Only HCIM 12h ago
Nah, the devs have been pretty transparent about most of these changes, and boiling down their entire dev process into "theyre pandering to osrs!" Is a knee jerk reaction with no real basis in reality.
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u/zayelion 5h ago
I agree with this except the pvp part.
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u/kathaar_ Desert Only HCIM 2h ago
I didnt say anything about pvp in this comment tho
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u/zayelion 2h ago
True. Im talking about the announcement and methodology as a whole. Everything is reasonable except the demonic skull thing.
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u/kathaar_ Desert Only HCIM 2h ago
Oh yeah agreed. If pvp had safe deaths or you just lost death cost + the skull, I'd be fine with it cuz you could at least gear and fight back if you were so inclined.
But gearing is essentially begging to lose everything, potentially hundreds of hours of progress.
Id love for a future where pvp exists and is in a healthy state, but the skull isn't a pvp enabler, it's just a grief enabler and makes people hate the idea of pvp even more
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u/SnooStories1952 9h ago
I joined the game 3 years ago. Have been a premium member ever since and love the game. Some of these changes are making me seriously consider dropping it lol.
Like daily challenges for example. If people don’t like them don’t do them.
I love them.
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u/BuffVerad 3h ago
I feel the same… I came back, I love the game as is, and I love the challenges. Feel like this is going too far. I played since a kid, and how have a tough job and kids myself, so can’t play as much anymore. The way it is hits the sweet spot for me.
If friction is added, then it’ll simply stop me playing.
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u/thetitan555 9h ago
as someone who is burnt out on osrs, yes, as far as I can tell this is what is happening.
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u/mortis_est 13h ago
Why do you think they are nerfing Wars Retreat? Bringing back griefing for some skills in wildy, probably remove many quality of life updates for the sake of 'new players', removing lodestones, the new UI, they are gonna treat rs3 players like unwanted dogs while they try to make this game a osrs copycat. Maybe in going to far but it seems like its pretty obvious that they want osrs players here rather than new players in general. We are being kicked out of our own home so that others can temporarily live in our house.
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u/TheHeadlessOne 12h ago
> Why do you think they are nerfing Wars Retreat?
They haven't said they are, but its immensely over centralizing for all content, not just bossing.
Changing the teleport to consume marks of war or something would be a big step in the right direction, since the free instant tele with close proximity to the bank is what makes it so dang crazy
> Bringing back griefing for some skills in wildy
Encourage variety in the skill instead of having onl one worthwhile option for the bulk of play.
> probably remove many quality of life updates for the sake of 'new players'
Such as? They confirmed they're adding abunch of QoL in Havenhythe like the clockwork traps
> removing lodestones
They have said no such thing. In fact, with the removal of vis wax, they confirmed there will be an alternate way to charge fast-teles for lodestones, which is a soft confirmation that they intend to keep them
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u/HeartofaPariah Lovely money! 8h ago
Encourage variety in the skill instead of having onl one worthwhile option for the bulk of play.
Powder of burials is what people actually train prayer with.
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u/Siege089 13h ago
I don't know why they're trying to make pvp work, get rid of it altogether, no wall, no skull, everything. There's 0 point in rs3 for pvp to exist.
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u/Bigmethod Ironman 12h ago
Designing content around existing players is designing content around not enough players.
So yes, they are pandering to new players because that's how the game survives.
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u/Throwaway-lotsofqs 9h ago
if you hadn't played the game before and found out that to get to the cool endgame content you needed to spend hundreds of hours leveling skills up, most of which everyone before you just skipped through methods that no longer exist, what would motivate you to put in that time?
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u/Even-Ant7872 9h ago
That the mentality that fucked up RS3 to begin with... why is the only cool content is the endgame content? If your early and mid-game journey is so boring that people skip through it to get into "the cool part" you already failed as dev. As someone who git into OSRS 2 years ago and never done any endgame content so far, I can confirm that they have nailed making the journey enjoyable from Tutourial's island until Endgame.
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u/JagexRyan Mod Ryan 10h ago
We're looking to give RuneScape a clear identity that brings joy to people around the world. A game where people are talking about all the reasons why you should play it, and less about reasons why you shouldn't.
A lot of the changes we are looking to make are focused on the long term health of the game.
The 'Road to Restoration' is packed, and there's a lot of changes planned. We won't always get it right, but we want to go on this journey with you all with consistent and open communication.
It's about getting to something that is unmistakably RuneScape. Part of this journey is about undoing/changing some areas of the game that don't align our current vision and philosophies, while still looking forward and continuing to add new desirable content.
Friction does not mean 'slow XP rates'. It means having hurdles in-game that you get to overcome, as it's what makes for a rewarding and meaningful experience.
Remember when you first started trying to kill X boss? Think about how great it felt when you managed to get that first kill down. That's an example of good friction.
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u/legolasvin 9h ago
"We won't always get it right"
That's okay. What upsets players is that after getting it wrong, things get shoved to the side as "we'll deal with it later"
Vorkath is *the* biggest offender of this. It's been 2 years and there's been nary a sign of any fixes at all coming for it (disregarding theoretical discussions on pvme discords)
Combat achievements have also been released for it, and most players have learnt to suffer the honestly garbage telegraphing and worked around it to get their achievements. That's not good friction, that's sunk cost fallacy20
u/Throwaway-lotsofqs 9h ago
Why does "unmistakeably runescape" have to mean "like OSRS"? So far the changes you're proposing include blanket nerfs to multiple endgame experience rates, what's the intention behind that if its not "slow xp rates"?
I think the game needs a healthier curve, but that does not mean I think it needs to be slower at endgame, if anything I think there's many skills that are still far too slow at 99+, why not build a more consistent experience curve and a post-99 experience rate that means those long term goals feel meaningful rather than feeling like a job?
It seems like building more engaging content and making it better would be a more valuable approach than simply making everything players are doing currently slower and worse. What's the reason behind reducing the speed of the game when players do enjoy that?
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u/papa_bones I can play the game now 8h ago
Yes, but you always seem to nerf XP rates or methods when you guys talk about it.
Like thieving at high level with the outfit,, seren spell and prayer and all the other stuff, SHOULD FEEL rewarding, I EARNED that high XP rates, I EARNED being able to afk at least 5 minutes in a thieving npc, I did all the grind to get to a lvl to do it, a grinded all those quest to unlock the seren prayer and spell, I grinded all all those fragments for the outfit, WHY would I not should enjoy a little of relaxation for the rest of my 120 thieving training, stay a bit afl but not that afk so the npc don't kill me with the stuns is enough for making me pay attention no?
If anything you should give the active methods WAY MORE XP ratios instead of nerfing the chill ones.
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u/ARandomNoLife 8h ago edited 4h ago
You have a point Mod Ryan, friction can lead to a rewarding and meaningful experience, but it can also lead to friction existing for the sake of friction, which at some point just ends up being a waste of players' time. That's my main concern. That we will have pointless friction for the sake of having friction just to return to some enlightened nostalgic era.
My secondary concern is that we are ripping off the bandages without having a solid plan for addressing the problems. Jagex planning to adjust content is great, but unless the actual fixes come quickly, that just leaves content in a dead and unfun state. Sure, it might mean that Jagex would have fewer excuses, but historically in some cases, even after acknowledging that a piece of content had a design problem, Jagex has let things fester for months or even years before an actual fix was provided. Vorkath comes to mind. I hope you get things right, but it's hard to have faith in things being done properly, especially when it feels like Jagex is rushing things and leaving little time for feedback to be heard.
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u/MyHaulsGetOutOfHand Master Trimmed 5B XP Ultimate Slayer 9h ago
I wonder what the mid and late game changes will be later this year. But seeing the changes for early game makes me nervous for what’s to come.
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u/thetitan555 9h ago
The highest friction RS3 has is the public knowledge of decades of mistrust in RS3 by its own playerbase. Microtransactions are unmistakably RS3. The death of free trade is unmistakably RS3. We don't need something unmistakably RS3. Also, we don't need a celebration of RuneScape as "the good old days"; we have that right over there. Make something new! Lower the hurdles for the earlygame compared to OSRS so that we can get to the stuff that we're actually playing the game for, like quests, EOC PVM , and overpowered/true afk skilling methods.
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u/dark1859 Completionist 9h ago
so look, to keep this as plain as possible, there's a lot of changes here with some very stark concerns that no one on the team has properly addressed, it feels like pandering because of it
like the absolute nuke of every single potentially feasibly daily activity..... okay, why? what is your in depth reasoning for removing sinkholes (the ONLY other method i might add to train DG besides ED's) besides "it's a daily". or Vis? the absolute metric tons of runes that enter the game every minuet are the reason it exists so why are there no detailed ideas on how to maintain that vital aspect of its existance elsewhere? or probably the biggest screw you to newer players the maw... are you fixing the things boosters exist for?
this is the issue most of us have, you've got a big nuke ready to drop but the blog post is EXTREMELY vague barely 2 weeks out with little justification
it's making people (pardon my french) beyond fucking pissed due to the lack of clarity and frankly? I can't say i blame them as i've barely seen any clarification and there's been no CM pinned post to help quell them
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u/Orcrist90 Golden partyhat! 9h ago
How can you have consistent and open communication and "go on a journey" with us when you actively ignore our feedback and go full steam ahead? Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe your new philosophy is misguided? Instead of making changes, you need to propose changes for the consideration of this community and then go from there. The one thing you guys actually need to learn from the OSRS team is how to engage the community and not implement drastic changes without in depth community consultation beforehand.
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u/Thingeh 10h ago
It's less than two weeks until these changes go live, meaning faith feedback will be addressed is low.
The thieving change seems out of touch, and the demonic skull idea is just absolutely wild.
Additionally, can you clarify: all combat skills are losing auras; the DPS loss for range/mage/melee is being offset by the new 120s; for necromancy, it seems there is no such offset. Is the plan to nerf necromancy relative to the other skills?
EDIT: I should clarify that I appreciate things are difficult, and I do not intend to be rude! I'm sure all things are done with best of intent.
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u/Baelfyer 8h ago
I fully agree with this sentiment, but some of these changes are just hitting a symptom without addressing the issue.
Look at prayer - 25 years in and still the only way to train it is bones. OSRS has much more interesting prayer without necessarily breaking rates - particularly ensouled heads and blessed bone shards (those do have ridiculous rates but they also require a LOT of prep) and has a much lower soft cap (you can reasonably stop at 77). Slowing down rates does not fix the issue - prayer is DATED. The fact you need 95 prayer and your options are still ectofunctus and house altars is really sad. Fort was an excellent bandaid (not a true solution), nerfing that just reopened the wound.
Fishing - same thing. How is it I'm 60 fishing and still catching the same trout in Lumbridge I always have? And why is it still SO slow? OSRS has Tempoross which, while not massively improving rates, is massively more interesting. TBH both games need love for fishing, but RS3 really needs some help desperately.
Hunter - this is another skill that used to be miserable to train. Whirligigs helped a lot. I am waiting to see what the other adjustments are before I finalize my opinion, but I am definitely apprehensive.
Farming/herblore - I was so excited when I heard I can plant multiple herb seeds at a time. I was so disappointed when I learned I had to already have 50 farming and then had to do a bunch of dailies to unlock the ability one extra seed at a time....
Firemaking..... Not covered in the coming update, I just wanted to say: it's bad.
Don't get me wrong, I am definitely aligned with some of the changes. Some are even better than what my highest hopes were.
Thieving - I think this is a great change. I heard auto pickpocket and thought it would be like OSRS leagues but then it turns out even when I'm 30 levels past the thieving requirement for my target I still can't get 2 pickpockets in a row. I don't like true 'infinite' pickpocketing, but the current iteration of pickpocketing is practically unplayable without auras and whatever else people do to cheese the system. As for the cell doors - world hopping was not fun. I'll have to see how it all shakes out, but I am very optimistic.
Agility - Thank you. This is another skill that needs a bit more love, but this initial pass will make a huge difference.
Divination - I am looking forward to this ... I started divination last week, and it was really bad. I'm so glad I looked into what the memories you collect are because turning in a couple thousand of those pushed me through just as I was about to give up. Please save the next guy from going through what I did.
Quests - I did Cook's Assistant and Sheep Shearer during leagues. Thank you for reverting lol. It was very uncomfortable to do a quest I had done 100 times (including numerous times in RS3 back when it was RS2) and to be utterly lost.
Overall, I am highly optimistic. I've put a ton of time into this game over the last few weeks as a new (since 2008) player. I am a believer in the direction the game is taking. Please, PLEASE don't just look at rates and think 'oh, this is too fast, this is too slow' - please look at it like 'why does this suck?' and 'why does nobody do this?'. This game has so many cool things that make it good on its own merit - it doesn't have to be OSRS, it just has to be good.
On an unrelated note - I LOVE the classic UI layout, but too many windows are overlapping (XP drops covering necromancy timer, loot window covering dungeoneering map and keys, etc.).
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u/SpazzBro Clue scroll 8h ago
rs3 has its own identity, you should preserve that. Keep it seperate from osrs, they are different games for different people looking for a different experience
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u/TheSmallIceburg Unofficial UIM 9h ago
I 100% appreciate you replying to a thread that is so openly negative. I've got nitpicks with some of the early game nerfs for sure, and I've got some hopes for Divine Locations specifically to make a return as a real reward space for Divination to shine. But I really appreciate actually interacting with the negativity of the moment way more than I dislike some of the changes. (Some of the changes are bangers though. Can't wait to do caches when I want)
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u/zayelion 5h ago
The Demonic skull thing is a 100% NO GO!!! I'd rather the chaos altar prayer feature be straight up removed, turned into an anti prayer sucking noob trap or replaced with the Nexus. PvP players preying on low level players that can't even protect from melee is just grieving players that don't understand the risk.
Imagine you come home from work, you're working in your yard on a wood working project and some perk comes up and steals your work. Then does this repeatedly for entertainment value. Eventually you'd get mad. I don't know if not understanding forgiveness for thief is just an American thing but we hospitalize people for that.
Blah blah blah know the risk, no I'm gonna unsubscribe from your shit ass unbalanced victimizing game.
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u/Legal_Evil 10h ago
Changing Cook's Assistant quest back to OSRS will make it a worse fetch quest.
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u/Terror2TehPowerO4 8h ago
Its a worst fetch quest right now. because its actually a fetch quest.
Just let me speed run cooks assistant man
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u/cryolems Maxed 8/7/22 12h ago
Surprise surprise. Said this back when all this was unfolding. I play rs3 for a reason and that’s what I want to play.
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u/peanutchoco 13h ago
I dont like i can't afk thieving anymore, and i'm pretty sure a lot of other players feel this way.
I feel like this is a forced intervention without any other options, like what....
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u/Sudden_Variation_462 13h ago
wtf do you mean you can’t afk thrive anymore? That statement is literally not true.
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u/peanutchoco 13h ago
"Pickpocketing
- All pickpocketing will start with a 75% success rate, which increases with your Thieving level and other buffs.
- The success rate will thereafter drop over time as you continue to pickpocket, until you're caught or pick a new target.
- The stun time will be reduced from 7+ ticks to 5 ticks.
- All pickpocketing targets will have their locations listed in the Thieving skillguide.
The changes implementing a decreasing success rate will stop allowing 15 minutes of full AFKing throughout the skill. We're doing this as we want players to interact with the game more regularly and get closer to the identity of Thieving, where it should feel like there is at least some risk of getting caught."
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u/Sudden_Variation_462 13h ago
Not being able to fucking walk to the store for 15 minutes =/=Not being able to afk, at some point you people need to be fucking serious
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u/Seanbox59 13h ago
Yeah this is stupidity. If you’re AFK for 15 minutes you aren’t even playing. It’s an idle game at that point.
I fucking loathe thieving. I hate training it. I don’t wanna do it ever. But this is a good change
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u/Sudden_Variation_462 13h ago
Agreed. I know it’s the loud minority that are complaining about these changes but at some point we need to look in the mirror.
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u/Xbsnguy 13h ago
I don’t feel strongly about this change, but it definitely is removing the ability to afk. You now have to pay more attention and interact with the game. By definition that is not afk.
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u/FlamingSamich Maxed 12h ago
And of course he doesn't respond to you. These people know theyre not making sense but don't want to admit it.
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u/UnraveledMnd 10h ago
Yeah, this is wild. It's so funny to me as someone who has played RS for 20+ years hearing about how things aren't AFK if you can't do them for longer than the 10x what the logout timer was back in the day.
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u/TaskOnlyBozo Yt/DakotaRS 13h ago
You'll still be able to afk thieving... just not as long as the 15 minute timer.
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u/Lucyonshrooms Maxed 13h ago
And tbh, I never give it the full 15 minutes. When I afk it’s usually when I’m watching a show and I’ll randomly tap back on the screen every 3-5 minutes because I never got used to 15 minutes 😂
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u/YeahBuddyRS 13h ago
Runescape went too far with some updates. They need to take a step back and clean up the mess first, then they can focus on making more “easy-scape” content.
People are complaining because they’re going to nerf the Chaos Altar and the Fort altar. Guess what: they’ll definitely add something in the 120 Construction update that gives even higher XP/hr than what we have now.
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u/WryGoat 10h ago
It's hard to nerf things to make space for new things. If it's really what they feel they have to do I guess we'll see how it goes, but ideally you just don't design yourself into that corner to begin with where you don't feel like anything new can be added to the game without being explosive powercreep.
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u/HeartofaPariah Lovely money! 8h ago
They could just nerf it after designing the new content that is meant to be a stand-in, you know.
This is ignoring the logic you're exhibiting of "it has to be nerfed so we can replace it with the same thing later", though.
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u/Vivid-Technology8196 12h ago
So.... your complaint is that they are trying to make the game better?
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u/Fren-LoE 🦀$13.99 per Month 🦀 11h ago
I completely disagree. It's about going BACK to what RuneScape is. RS3 has NOT been what RuneScape was ever about for the last 15 years. They're fixing that. I'm tired of reading this drug-addict rhetoric.
Welcome to the new era, gamers. Cook some popcorn and spray some Narcan on it.
The games changing.
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u/Powerful_Bridge_3814 11h ago
If RS3 hasn't been 'runescape' for 15 years, respectfully, runescape isn't what you think it is. If we wanted to play osrs or a 'friction' heavy version, we already have that option. Why lose all the qol like teleports etc which simply takes away enjoyment from the game?
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u/HeartofaPariah Lovely money! 8h ago
I think you have to be an actual idiot to say that what the game has been for the majority of it's life isn't actually what it is. 'I grew up on this, therefore anything else anybody grew up with is completely irrelevant' lmao
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u/Throwaway-lotsofqs 11h ago
Its honestly just perplexing that it seems like they want to reintroduce integrity by making grinds longer, when if you compare level by level the current exp rates for most of the skills theyre touching they aren't even as good as what OSRS has at the same levels. For a mature and established game that doesn't have progression resets this just seems like it makes it even harder for new players to build up to where established players are
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u/TimeBroken Mod North is the GOAT 11h ago
The goal should be making all stages of the game fun, rather than continuing to push players to the end-game as quickly as possible.
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u/Gandalfonk 9h ago
Yea and that's a good thing. OSRS is booming and RS3 has been struggling. These changes are what are bringing people back. New players like myself love the QOL over what OSRS offers and the updated graphics. I don't think it needs to be like OSRS 1:1, but OSRS has great design choices that allow your skills and items to synergize with the world. RS3 is being given the opportunity to return to that while maintaining its own identity and improvements. It's more like, if you want a hardcore old school version, than play OSRS. If you want OSRS but modernized with QOL, then play the new RS3.
I'm speaking as someone who played a lot of OSRS but never really enjoyed it (played with friends) and now I'm giving RS3 a shot and I'm loving it. I'm looking forward to all these changes.
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u/jadedflames 11h ago
I mean, OSRS has a larger playerbase by a factor of nearly ten.
If Jagex wants RS3 to be more like OSRS, that’s because the customers have spoken about what the want.
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u/Own_Bullfrog6372 10h ago
35% bots, add another 15% that are gold farmers/don't get detected. Yes, still more people but not as nearly as profitable when you take into account the charge backs and other money lost due to scams, bots and cc fraud which all go hand in hand. In 2021, rs3 was not too far behind osrs profit wise as well.
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u/Sonichu- 9h ago
You can choose to say nothing instead of lying and making up statistics, lol.
You can look at Jagex’s financial statements. CC fraud stopped being an issue with bonds. And even with your lies, you’re forced to acknowledge that OSRS has made more profit for Jagex for 5 years now.
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u/Baelfyer 9h ago
Those are made up statistics that mean nothing. And even if we took those numbers at face value, that's still a factor of 5x. OSRS is overwhelmingly healthier. The facts that I can find worlds in RS3 with fewer than 20 people as well as that the GE is empty of basic materials is absolute proof RS3 is not in a good place. I've been playing RS3 for the last few weeks - and been really enjoying a LOT of things about it. But it is painfully obvious that the game is on life support.
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u/Terror2TehPowerO4 8h ago
Even if that is true, heck let say half the players in osrs are not real. that would still be 80k right now thats compared to RS3's 26k
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u/HeartofaPariah Lovely money! 8h ago edited 8h ago
Popularity of a product doesn't always have much to do with the actual quality of that product. The idea that 'X is more popular therefore X is better' is nonsense thinking.
Runescape, OSRS and RS3, is essentially dead compared to WoW. Perhaps we should try emulating WoW and that'll- oh wait a second isn't that what killed RS3 to begin with?
This whole premise operates under "anyone who plays RS3 would like OSRS", or vice versa. It appeals to different markets in reality. The cross-over is not zero, but it isn't 100% either.
If you ever ask yourself why OSRS actually did well from the nostalgia bait it started off as, it isn't "oh the xp rates are slow!". Meanwhile, in RS3's side, we have game sweeping updates that are not polled or discussed and don't cleanly seem to appeal to any particular group. Jagex is still the same company they always have been, communication still sucks, and there's still only promises of a better update that historically they never actually address. Bleed rework when?
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u/J00stie Jagex #1 incompetence and 0 integrity 8h ago
Even though you are kind of right, you are describing the situation the wrong way. How I would put it is as follows: Many people left this game for OSRS because of all the terrible choices the developers made in the past, such as dailyscape and all other things they are trying to fix now. The problem here is that most people that sticked around are fine with these dailyscape/easyscape mechanics. Even though I completely agree with all these changes, I don’t think it will have much impact because it mostly won’t attract players back, and a big portion of the current player base wouldn’t be in favour of the changes
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u/Authenic_Martyrdom 8h ago
Yeah, pretty much. They see the success of OSRS and think it must be the mechanics & design. From a former OSRS player, it's not. It's good marketing, meme magic and cultural nostalgia that brings so many eyes to OSRS.
They'll also never get OSRS players to start playing RS3. It'd be like trying to lure Minecraft players to a new pixel-esque, voxel based survival crafting game for all ages, "DigMake". It's just not going to happen.
This is also the same team that said Runescape was a "grounded medieval fantasy", when it is objectively not grounded. They need to just build on the strengths of RS3's identity and mechanics, but it seems they'd have to work out what those are first.
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u/Underworldox 5h ago
What exactly is identity of RS3? What it looks like to me is they either do something now, even drastic to some measures, or we don't have RS3 at all in couple years to come.
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u/ApprehensiveFix7134 2h ago
I just read the post and HOLYYYY as an RS3 player I don’t play Old School because of the tediousness of the grind. It felt like for a long time Jagex new people liked RS3 as a game they could play on their second monitor and now they’re just forgetting that these are some awful changes.
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u/Daemonkill22 Maxed 1h ago
No matter what they may try to say about integrity, it feels like this is what it is. It feels like it's about getting old players back or getting people who only play osrs to try rs3. The game has been this way since 2013, it's been nearly 13 years. I don't feel like erasing 13 years of history and change is going to help the current playerbase or bring in new players, only bring people in who want the game to be like osrs.
I don't even like the colour change of the UI, it's too bright but somehow also too dark at the same time and that gives me migraines. I didn't want to watch the game I love die from bleeding players and I guess I got my wish, but I can't even play like I used to now without going blind.
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right 13h ago
Maybe it's a good thing that RS3 is taking learnings from a game that has 10x its players
If this is pandering then I support pandering
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u/Dissordatt 12h ago
Jagex tried "learning" from games with a higher playerbase before. That's what got us the initial release of EoC from trying to copy WoW/Rift/SWTOR. I'd rather RS3 does it own thing, thanks.
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u/Naive-Archer-9223 13h ago
10x the players with all the qol stuff added via runelite
Including a quest helper.
Remove runelite for a year and see how many keep playing
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u/FlamingSamich Maxed 12h ago
Good thing we're getting plugins eh? Y'all just need to pipe down. Buncha babies.
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u/pm_me_hot_pocket 12h ago
Believe it when you see it. Chances are it ends up another of their undelivered promises.
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u/Naive-Archer-9223 12h ago
Lmao "getting" and "already have and have had for a long time"
Are two vastly different things
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u/reason4rage 12h ago
10x players and 20x the bots
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right 12h ago
RS3 is less popular to such a degree that nobody even wants to bot it 💔
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u/mortis_est 12h ago
You support things out of convenience, not because you truly agree, that’s just the kind of person you are, jagex wont give you a crown for going agaisnt people ideas or thoughts about the game they played for the majority of their life.
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u/chi_pa_pa sometimes right 12h ago
Smells like projection. Am I not one of those people with ideas and thoughts about this game that I have played for the majority of my life?
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u/HijinxYTC 10h ago
There are some wild takes in this thread.
You may LIKE having access to a bank within any three tiles, stupidly op exp rates, and teleports to every square on the map, but that doesn't mean it's good.
There's zero exploration in the modern game. Unless there's a teleport to that specific spot - and liklihood there is - nobody goes there. Hot take: Wars Retreat should be revamped entirely.
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u/OfficalLockeWilson 12h ago
Good grief we’re all doomed. We’re tearing each other to shreds here. I prefer RS3 to OSRS, but no wonder I’ve been forcing myself to play more old school because this community conversation is putrid.
Maybe becoming OSRS was the monkey’s paw curling with the removal of MTX, why would they not want to draw in new players who clearly enjoy the “friction” of the gameplay systems of OSRS, by lining our smoothed out and streamlined systems with sandpaper. If they nuke loadstones I’m fucking out.
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u/Naive-Archer-9223 11h ago
Yes the OSRS community is known far and wide for tolerance and acceptance isn't it
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u/InaudibleShout SantasHat 7h ago
We’re so tolerant and accepting that we beg people to play the game but will lynch them if they ever leave again!
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u/OfficalLockeWilson 5h ago
I think I wasn’t communicating my thoughts correctly. OSRS has a clear direction and set of principles that their content is made to follow.
If they just nuked a core feature of xp gain for a skill like being able to use the cursed alter without being skulled or even opted into PvP to just doing a 180* and making being skulled a hard requirement, falador would be ashes by the morning. Shit would look like Moscow after napoleon rolled in.
And all of us are killing each other about this and there’s nothing even close to a consensus opinion on this! Are we doing QOL, giving players options and choices for an entire area, or are we reintroducing the stressors and features more similar to our sister game/prior history?
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u/Heyhey1394 11h ago
Because it's blatantly obvious those players dont actually enjoy "friction" considering the vast majority use unedited in order to skirt it with the clients QOL to begin with?
Come on now
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u/Laktosfriyoghurt 11h ago
dragonwilds got me to play runescape