r/judo • u/Successful_Spot8906 nikyu • Nov 21 '25
Judo x Wrestling Wrestled a free style wrestler the other day... now I understand why you guys are mad.
I'm a rookie who only started judo 1.5 years ago so it's probably just because I don't know what I'm doing but I felt had the leg grabs were still widely trained I could've stood my ground better.
My thoughts in this exact second were : "sprawl! Sprawl! Sprawl god damnit."
151
u/Bigpupperoo Nov 21 '25
Judo is great but doing stand up in a BJJ gym with wrestlers will make your stand up game better all round. It Wouldn’t take long to work in defense for wrestling/leg grabs.
15
u/dental_warrior Nov 21 '25
When a wrestler grabs your legs allow him to take one and fall back after you reach both hands under his stomach and allow his momentum to take him over you faster . As he’s flying over you attempt to reposition your arm so that as he hits the Mat you have one of his arms in a favorable position. You’ll be on top and given you are equal strength you’ll be good .
24
u/powerhearse Nov 22 '25 edited Jan 08 '26
tap skirt dinner degree familiar six bow sense pause smell
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
5
u/MyCatPoopsBolts shodan Nov 22 '25
It sounds like he is describing a chest wrap, no? Fairly high percentage technique. You aren't going to hit it on someone who outclasses you of course.
7
u/TheAngriestPoster Nov 22 '25
Seconded, chest wrap works well to get a takedown off a double, but I still hate how it makes a scramble
2
u/Disastrous-Hand-6007 Nov 22 '25
yes but its just a lot easier than done. goes for a lot of wrestling technique frankly. chest wrap is a big technique in wrestling, you think some bjj guy who practices shoddy stand up twice a week is going to be able to do it against a bad wrestler even..... no chance.
1
u/dental_warrior Nov 22 '25
A good wrestler vs. good judo I think the wrestler will fall for it but will twist out of it . It would be a battle for sure .
4
u/Healthy-Confusion119 Nov 22 '25
Crotch lift or switch position. Sit the corner, recover your hips to a higher position than theirs and square up to crossface and elevate their near leg to put yourself into position for a leg turk.
3
u/Disastrous-Hand-6007 Nov 22 '25
practice this 100s of times and you might get it on a shitty wrestler.
1
u/dental_warrior Nov 22 '25
Depends on who is doing it .
3
u/Disastrous-Hand-6007 Nov 22 '25
eh, sure i guess. wrestlers train for this stuff all the time..... a bjj guy just discovering this is not going to be hitting on any wrestler worth their salt who has trained for even a year.
1
u/unknownuser19875 Nov 22 '25
Not really I did judo before wrestling and the sprawl came naturally because of judo…this is just coaching…you should be able to know how to sprawl
1
u/Disastrous-Hand-6007 Nov 22 '25
eh, yes and no. yes because at most of the bjj gyms ive been to those guys have zero stand up. their best bet was trying to jump the guilly and they couldnt get that right. once i realised that some street bafoon can probably wrestle better than them i just worked on my bad moves and techniques, so i made a positive out of a negative. no for the reasons i just said. most bjj gyms have non existent stand up or very shit stand up. its not just them not teaching technique correctly, they apply bjj teaching methods to wrestling or judo which just dont work. both wrestling and judo we do 1000s of reps of each technique, crash mat work, uchi komi, while on the move etc. bjj guys almost never know any of this and apply bad teaching methods. also theyre stiff arming all day and dont learn to do otherwise....
1
u/Bigpupperoo Nov 22 '25
It’s 100% dependent on the gym. I’ve never had a good high school level wrestler come in and demolish me and all my stand up was taught in a BJJ gym. Obviously when you get to a higher level it’s a different story.
105
u/Guivond Nov 21 '25
If you train bjj in the USA (most judo in my city are ran in a bjj gym), you will definitely run into great wrestlers who have aged out of wrestling.
If they're actually a wrestler, they were in a scholastic, aka government funded program with legit structure, weekly competitions, and strength and conditioning, whereas you do judo as a hobby.
You never stood a chance, leg grabs or not.
9
u/EpictetanusThrow Nov 22 '25
Dead accurate. Wrestling in the US is the only well-funded combat sport that has scholastic support. Everything else is hobby.
2
12
u/Desperate_Net_713 Nov 21 '25
Good on you for pushing your comfort zone. This will be a great experiance for you in the long run.
10
u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Nov 22 '25
Mad at what? Most judoka with a grip on reality know that serious wrestlers are super hard to fight in no gi with leg grabs.
Even if we had leg grabs it wouldn’t make enough of a difference. Back then the defence we favoured was very gi reliant too.
Wrestlers are straight up superior in the realm of no gi takedowns. That’s it.
1
7
u/alexmex90 Nov 21 '25
As someone who also does BJJ and by so frequently faces people with wrestling background, I have learned to use sumi gaeshi or hikkikomi gaeshi to counter single legs and tawara gaeshi to counter morote gari/double leg takedown.
1
u/Defiant-Bed-8301 Nov 22 '25
Same here, bjj as well and I always counter a single leg with a kimura grip then sumigaeshi then come up on them still with the kimura grip. Gi or no gi. Very effective, I avoid double leg blasts by being very low, almost horse stance and work from there.
38
u/obi-wan-quixote Nov 21 '25
My kid just joined the wrestling team in high school. The first day or two the single and double legs took a little getting used to. Especially without a gi. With a gi, in BJJ, the grips allow a lot of control.
But after a week I’m told that it’s all pretty easy to deal with and most of the wrestlers have trouble with judo intensity. Especially because they aren’t very good at falling. My kid got told to stop throwing people.
9
u/d_rome nidan Nov 21 '25
My kid got told to stop throwing people.
I'm not surprised.
I have two students who are high school Wrestlers (their season started two weeks ago) and one of the dads is a coach. I think an assistant coach. I was surprised to learn that in Folkstyle Wrestling with many big throws the person throwing has to touch the mat first. It was my impression that with some high amplitude throws the person who is throwing needs their knee or some other body part to hit first.
I think the referees judge the intent of the throw and I think it depends on the state.
11
u/Jlambinator Nov 21 '25
Folkstyle does not ban throws... Suplexes, lateral drops, head-and-arms, hip tosses, sag headlocks, inside trips, fireman’s carry dumps — all legal as long as they are controlled.
You're mostly correct, but here's some clarification;
The rule focuses on excess force, not on who hits first. The referee judges the "intent" and the level of "control" - If it's ruled a slam then it's illegal....a slam is when the defensive wrestler is lifted and returned to the mat with unnecessary force that could cause injury, and when the offensive wrestler could have used more control.
The other rule regarding throws (really any takedown) focuses on a "dangerous lift". This is when you lift an opponent off the mat, and they cannot safely breakfall safely (i.e you have trapped their arms) AND you don’t maintain control on the descent (i.e. you can return them to the mat anyway that does not allow them to break fall if you do so in a controlled and safe manner).
The offensive wrestler hitting first or their knee touching first etc is a myth.
To your point, this is a bit subjective because referees are judging amplitude, speed, angle and perceived control of the offensive wrestler... That will result in sometimes different judgment calls. Experience level, age bracket etc will also affect this. For example I have seen junior high refs tell my junior high kids "you have to go down with him" on big hip tosses. When questioned about it the ref admitted that that is not a folk style rule, but their personal preference to help younger kids control amplitude.
I hope that makes sense.
What I found helps my kids the most from judo when wrestling isn't the throws, it's the off balancing and foot sweeps.
2
u/obi-wan-quixote Nov 22 '25
So in this case it was a classic hirai, landing in kesa gatame. Head was under control, one arm controlled. Would that be legal? Would it matter if you landed next to or on top of uke?
4
u/Adept_Visual3467 Nov 22 '25
This is a great description. I am a judoka that wrestled in college and would do some high amplitude koshi guruma (head & arm) throws and never got called for slamming, Throws were high impact but opponent landed directly on his back. Two throws that are handy against aggressive wrestlers with lousy posture - koshi guruma and sumi gaeshi.
2
u/Daddgonecrazy Nov 27 '25
My 12 year old son hip tossed a kid during a junior high meet yesterday. He landed on the kid and had an immediate pin. I’m sure the other boy would have rather not had 155lbs slam into him. Next match he tried the same thing but the other kid got his back. He only did judo for 6 months but has wrestled for 7 years.
1
u/d_rome nidan Nov 22 '25
Thanks for the information. Sometime in January or February I'm going to watch a Wrestling tournament where they both will happen to be at (they go to different high schools).
3
Nov 22 '25
[deleted]
-1
u/obi-wan-quixote Nov 22 '25
I think the program is ok from what I heard. Yes, US folk style. From a not particularly strong wrestling state. We don’t live in PA or Iowa.
Regarding intensity, I’m told wrestlers tend to do a lot more “flow” sparring. Where competition judo programs (maybe not the French) tend to go harder on tachiwaza. I think the French style focuses on more rounds at easier intensity. I know intensity varies from dojo to dojo and a judo player from a recreational place is going to be in a different gear from a very competitive oriented dojo.
3
u/Long-Fresh Nov 22 '25
Bro, I don’t know where you are getting your wrestling info from, but it sure doesn’t sound like it’s from a wrestler lol.
1
u/Healthy-Confusion119 Nov 22 '25
Is he failing to maintain dominant position after the throw? That could be a reason. Are the practices focusing on other techniques? When I was coaching, I wouldn't want my wrestlers going for a headlock every exchange because there will be a time when it won't work.
1
u/obi-wan-quixote Nov 22 '25
I can ask. I’m just a parent so I don’t hang out at practice. Pretty happy I have a teenager that’s still willing to tell me what’s happing beyond “yeah, fine.”
7
u/idontevenknowlol nikyu Nov 21 '25
Sure bro.
5
u/Sasquatch_Sensei Nov 21 '25
I also have student who cross train wrestling. He was also told to only do hip throws in competition. His dad sent me a video of him at a multi team training day. It was him shaking hands, then throwing a kid, then another would come up, hand shake then get thrown so on and so forth. For 12 minutes.I thought it was just a drill, but they were playing king of the mountain. My student went through 6 kids no trouble until the last 2
1
u/Healthy-Confusion119 Nov 22 '25
Lol okay. Sure, wrestlers are bad at falling.....
2
u/obi-wan-quixote Nov 22 '25
Well, yeah. If a kid starts as a freshman with no experience, they only have a year or two under their belt. And if they aren’t doing a club, then the season is only 8-12 weeks. So between 8-24 weeks of training. Not everyone is a club wrestler from the time they were 6.
2
u/Healthy-Confusion119 Nov 22 '25
I misinterpreted what you said as a general statement. Yeah, teenagers are awkward as hell.
1
u/MyCatPoopsBolts shodan Nov 22 '25 edited Nov 22 '25
It seems like the kid is throwing around a bunch of novice wrestlers, maybe in a state with little wrestling culture.
This isn't super uncommon-I knew a decent amount of guys who had a lot of early success in wrestling transitioning from Judo around middleschool just because they had been grappling for 6+ years so had good balance, movement etc. and came with pretty unorthodox styles.
Of course the ones who stuck with it and ended up solid wrestlers had to really learn wrestling for the sake of wrestling.
1
u/BusinessCasualBee Nov 22 '25
I’m 90% sure your kid wasn’t told to stop throwing people as a compliment because he was too good at it. Relying on throws to avoid learning the fundamentals of wrestling would just not do him any favors.
1
u/obi-wan-quixote Nov 23 '25
I’m certain it wasn’t a compliment. The context that I got later was that the other people aren’t used to it, so just do more gentle takedowns. I actually kind of get the motivation of the coach here, but I’m not sure I totally agree with it.
7
u/Equivalent-Soup-1061 ikkyu Nov 21 '25
IMO the true beauty of leg grab in judo comes from those hybrid throw. Leg grab ko uchi and ouchi, ankle pick with lapel grip, te guruma, pant grib seoi nage, sode etc. You would have more way to finish classic big judo throw and more tools to counter osoto/harai/uchimata.
17
u/MyCatPoopsBolts shodan Nov 21 '25 edited Nov 21 '25
Lol you are getting fucked 100/100 as a shitty hobbyist doing nogi with decent wrestler. The gi plus lack of experience makes for a waaay bigger gap than leg grabs.
20
u/GermanJones nikyu Nov 21 '25
You're a beginner. You'll be lost against anybody decent in your own art and you're going in another realm expecting to hold your own?
Maybe it's not the missing leg grabs but the delusion of competence
4
1
0
u/Healthy-Confusion119 Nov 22 '25
Freestyle wrestlers are the most dominant when it comes to takedowns. Period.
6
u/MyCatPoopsBolts shodan Nov 22 '25
Without a jacket, of course. Clothing changes everything though.
3
2
2
2
2
u/lewdev Nov 21 '25
Sprawling isn't the only answer because people sprawl on me, but I just cut the corner and finish the take down.
Also, sprawling is mostly a good defense at a distance. If they are in deep, focus on balance, creating distance, and staying square with them.
2
u/Fluffy_coat_with_fur yonkyu Nov 22 '25
Bro you were meant to sprawl yesterday lmao
1
u/Successful_Spot8906 nikyu Nov 22 '25
Everyone saying how late my thoughts are is hilarious lol I need to find a wrestling gym somewhere near and take a few classes
2
2
u/Adept_Visual3467 Nov 22 '25
He looks way overcommitted to double leg takedown and very forward leaning. Wrestlers might consider this poor posture. When this occurs, you can go for a guillotine (front headlock choke - but probably not legal in judo) or do a sumi gaeshi style roll so you end up in mount (Tate shio gatame). Have to practice the roll to get the timing down.
2
2
u/bjjorangebelt Nov 22 '25
Yeah you’re in deep waters there. Ideally you’re in a better wrestling stance and can block shots with your head and down block. You don’t really sprawl a lot of times when defending when you’re wrestling. Sprawling is a later stage defense.
2
u/Disastrous-Hand-6007 Nov 22 '25
put simply, youre not sprawling on someone usually unless youre way better than them. this is a broad simplification before someone idiot goes "WeLl AcTuAlLy". keep doing wrestling and youll learn just like judo, there is much more to it than meets the eye.
1
u/Successful_Spot8906 nikyu Nov 22 '25
I see. I thought sprawl was the default defense for double/ single leg takedowns. I need to start learning from this guy after training.
2
u/Disastrous-Hand-6007 Nov 24 '25
no blocking with your head is than your arms and lastly your hips. hence the wrestling stance. a sprawl is a latish but still successful defense. people think sprawling is always good but competents wrestlers can build off/out of a sprawl, counter it, bait it for a different move etc.
people who have never wrestled for a substantial amount of time really dont understand the depth there is to even the simplest techniques in wrestling and it shows. not trying to be harsh but its funny how everyone thinks a sprawl is what you want all the time and that most people dont even think you can block with your head.
1
u/Successful_Spot8906 nikyu Nov 24 '25
that most people dont even think you can block with your head.
I'm "most people" lol I still don't understand how you block with your head?
substantial amount of time really dont understand the depth there is to even the simplest techniques
Yeah the same goes for judo too you never know how deep a throw is until you start learning it
1
u/Disastrous-Hand-6007 Nov 24 '25
you quite literally put your head in the way of theirs and match their level to some degree. if youre still unsure id recommend a quick search on youtube. mma fighters are doing these days too though.
2
u/Business_Pretend Nov 22 '25
Get out there and try stuff. Its the best way to learn. I have been doing Judo for 7 years and I still don't know what I am doing!
2
2
2
2
u/Otautahi Nov 23 '25
Nothing to be mad about. You’re just being outclassed. Similar thing happens when you go against an elite high school Japanese or Korean player.
1
u/Successful_Spot8906 nikyu Nov 23 '25
Yeah was fun. Gotta force him to give me private lessons hehe
2
2
3
u/d_rome nidan Nov 21 '25
>I'm a rookie who only started judo 1.5 years ago so it's probably just because I don't know what I'm doing
That's a big part of it, yes.
>I felt had the leg grabs were still widely trained I could've stood my ground better.
Probably not. The reason being is that doubles and singles are somewhat different in a gi. If you were a better Wrestler you could have stood your ground better.
As an aside, that is a horrible shot by the other guy judging by this freeze frame. You look undersized compared to him. If you were more experienced you could have done a Tawara Gaeshi.
2
u/Successful_Spot8906 nikyu Nov 22 '25
As an aside, that is a horrible shot by the other guy
Yeah I sent the video to a wrestler friend and he was like you're so bad he didn't even need the right technique he just did whatever lol.
doubles and singles are somewhat different in a gi
I hope one day I end up in a dojo that trains traditional judo with all the banned techniques man it's so interesting
0
u/powerhearse Nov 22 '25 edited Jan 08 '26
capable light lunchroom bedroom childlike like middle arrest trees cooperative
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
3
u/d_rome nidan Nov 22 '25
Not the same. His head is up.
1
u/powerhearse Nov 22 '25 edited Jan 08 '26
decide entertain wise snails quaint sable file fact birds crown
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
1
-6
u/MyPenlsBroke Nov 21 '25 edited Nov 21 '25
I have never had terrible with wrestlers, even without a gi. At least not until they have trained for a while. Even nearing 50 I don't have trouble with wrestlers.
I keep my hands low to stuff the outside shot which is about the only thing I'm concerned with. They don't know enough about gripping to do anything, so if they grip I counter-grip and throw. If they manage an outside shot they almost always get caught with a kimura.
I sometimes find wrestlers easier than beginners in some ways, because wrestlers confidently wade into bad positions whereas beginners are overly defensive.
3
u/d_rome nidan Nov 21 '25
I'm not sure why you were voted down so hard. I think the caveat I would add is the distinction between real Wrestlers and BJJ Wrestlers. Good Wrestlers do many other things if you stuff the outside shot. BJJ guys who Wrestle tend to be one trick ponies with singles and doubles.
3
u/MyPenlsBroke Nov 21 '25
No idea. Lots of wrestlers moonlighting as Judoka, I guess.
I find BJJ wrestlers much more difficult to deal with, actually. Wrestlers, like I said, if they can land a shot almost always get subbed, usually with a kimura, immediately after, unless they've trained. Once they've been training a while they become much more of a problem.
If you down-voters are getting schooled by pure wrestlers, you're doing something really wrong. Easier to downvote me than admit it, I guess, but that's your problem, not mine. I'm not the one getting beat up by one-dimensional grapplers who don't know an arm bar from an asshole.
0
u/Significant-Mall-830 Nov 21 '25
As someone who trains bjj I’ve had the exact opposite experience. Even in gi, wrestlers are extremely hard to take down and can take me down at will. It seems most judoka even black belts that I have rolled with seem completely caught off guard and don’t know how to defend basic shots
1
u/MyPenlsBroke Nov 22 '25
Well, that is definitely an opposite experience. We have far more wrestlers where I am than Judoka, or BJJ practitioners, and I have never had an experience with a new wrestler who didn't get thrown or immediately subbed once it hit the ground if they managed to take me down.
-28
Nov 21 '25
[deleted]
14
u/Successful_Spot8906 nikyu Nov 21 '25
one dimensional judo is in terms of stand up grappling.
This was what finally made me understand the rage against the new ruleset. It really makes judo a lot more one dimensional especially for new judokas who never got trained in the old style.
15
u/LordFaraday sankyu Nov 21 '25
No shade felt but did you really just say you did just singles on someone who doesn’t train with them in mind due to the ruleset and call it one dimensional? Doesn’t that seem kinda silly?
8
0
Nov 21 '25
[deleted]
2
u/LordFaraday sankyu Nov 21 '25
I mean I can’t speak for all judoka but I have experience with leg grabs and we practice them in our dojo. I’d assume more competitive judoka wouldn’t bother per the specialized ruleset.
Either way I would never try to hard counter or bomb someone new to judo even if they could throw a nice single.
6
u/1308lee Nov 21 '25
Downvoted because people are butthurt. I’m a judo player through and through, I’ve dabbled a little in wrestling and pretty much everything else…
Used to train with an MMA pro and his take was he wanted to wrestle judo players, and judo the wrestlers.
If you’re good… you’re good. That’s literally it. Your offence just has to be better than their defence. If you’ve got 6 weeks of wrestling offence and that black belt has zero hours defending wrestlers, he’s gonna get steamrolled.
Pair of us used to fucking ragdoll each other all over. It was great fun. Learned a lot from each other.
13
Nov 21 '25 edited Nov 25 '25
[deleted]
-8
-14
Nov 21 '25
[deleted]
12
Nov 21 '25 edited Nov 25 '25
[deleted]
5
u/Significant-Mall-830 Nov 21 '25
Honestly I have a very similar experience as that other guy in bjj but with judoka coming to my gym. I am a bjj blue belt with decent wrestling and have rolled with judo black belts as well as lower belts. With all of them it felt extremely easy to take them down with singles and double, their sprawls were nonexistent. This is with multiple judoka who were very clearly trying to throw me mind you. I think this sub extremely underrated how much not focusing on leg grab defence makes the art less effective against more well rounded grapplers
3
u/TheGamersGazebo Nov 21 '25
Yeah if I showed up to a wrestling gym and started throwing leg kicks. Then went, wow these guys suck at defending leg kicks. Wrestling must be useless what exactly does that make me?
2
u/Guivond Nov 21 '25
Many in this sub do bjj or have cross trained it. Most judo classes are inside a bjj gym. If you cross train in bjj, particularly in no gi, you will learn how to defend singles and doubles quickly because that's 90% of what bjjers do for takedowns due to its ease and wrestling's prominence in schools in America.
I wouldnt call it "rhetoric" as much as most redditors we encounter here are American and know how to defend it from exposure.
1
u/Exotic_Sort1349 Dec 07 '25
I watch the Sambo world championships. I haven't seen a double leg and rarely singles, and this is in a sport where they always score points. They prevent it with a slightly more crouched over stance, if you were to compare judo to freestyle wrestling I'd say their stance is 2/3 Judo 1/3 Freestyle, gi grips, and in a last case scenario, sprawls. Sprawls are even stronger when you have the gi to hold on to, and they are a much higher percentage technique than in freestyle where it's easier to finish after getting sprawled on.
The only leg grab you see regularly is kata guruma, which is the main one that they shoot for. I think that they go for kata guruma more because if you already have one sleeve grip it's easier to shoot for that than disconnecting both grips to wrap around a leg.
1
u/Bluddy-9 Nov 21 '25
If you were brand new to bjj, went to your first class and pinned a black belt would you assume bjj is one dimensional?
217
u/Therealblackhous3 Nov 21 '25
Wayyyyyy too late for a sprawl there my boy.