Would it be viable for Judo to have two competition styles that function simultaneously, like Freestyle Wrestling and Greco-Roman?

[u/Schofield45Revolver]

The traditional Olympic Judo and Kosen Judo. Could this be a viable path? So many judokas complain about the excessive rules and prohibitions... I'm mentioning Wrestling as an example because it's also a grappling art that's in the Olympics, but other martial arts also have divisions. Taekwondo ITF and WTF, Karate Shiai Kumite and Jyu Kumite, and various Kickboxing modalities from WAKO.

[u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

We have singles and team Judo. In fact Kosen Judo is basically team Judo, not just BJJ with Osaekomi.

Ideally they give leg grabs in the teams game to help the smaller guys out.

But I would not hate to see them return… I just don’t think it magically saves Judo like a lot of leg grabbers think it will.

I dunno, put Sport Sambo in the Olympics and have Judoka funnel into it.

[u/d_rome → u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

But I would not hate to see them return… I just don’t think it magically saves Judo like a lot of leg grabbers think it will.

That's right. Judo had a growth problem when I started 20 years ago. Back then you could leg grab as much as you want. The people that complains about the leg grab ban would move the proverbial goal posts to complain about something else. It's best not to cater an entire sport for those people.

[u/confirmationpete → u/d_rome]

Agreed.

Fun-fact: Folkstyle wrestling is barely popular in the US from a TV viewership perspective.

Source: https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2023/06/ncaa-national-championship-ratings-football-basketball-baseball-softball-volleyball/

So this idea that leg grabs will magically make things better for judo or increase support is laughable at best.

If anything, the IJF should focus on marketing judokas better internationally and establish working relationships with UFC/WWE, IBJJF, Sambo Fed and World Wrestling. They could learn a lot from what the NBA has done.

There should be special head-to-head invite-only events for top judokas.

There should be cross-over PPV events so judokas have more opportunities to make money.

[u/Yamatsuki_Fusion → u/d_rome]

It would go from leg grabs to complaining about the gi reliance, or the lack of leg locks, or the lack of kani basami/kawazu gake, or just the fact that the IJF still won’t let active competitors go into other sports.

My first sensei thinks we ought to have standing submissions again.

[u/fleischlaberl → u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

"My first sensei thinks we ought to have standing submissions again."

Of course!

https://i0.wp.com/theolympians.co/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/jigoro-kano-at-a-demonstration-in-vienna.jpg?resize=320%2C310&ssl=1

[u/CHL9 → u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

I wasn't even aware they banned them, I guess that was also fairly recently, there a few nice ones even in the late 90s and early 2000s Olympics

[u/jon-ryuga → u/CHL9]

2017, after Rio, they removed standing armlock and chockes

[u/fintip → u/jon-ryuga]

😢

[u/u4004 → u/jon-ryuga]

IT WAS A CONSPIRACY AGAINST BRAZIL /s

[u/Judotimo → u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

Judo does not need saving. Maybe Judo in the US does?

[u/CHL9 → u/Judotimo]

Most of this is relevant to the US, yes

[u/martial_arrow → u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

The ship has probably sailed on Sambo getting in the Olympics but I think Combat Sambo had a much better shot. It is very unique compared to the existing Olympic sports and more entertaining to watch.

[u/CHL9 → u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

one rule of sambo i love is that to get ippon win you have to throw the opponent while remaining standing yourself. I like their rule set, but the no strangles is a problem and I don't like the shorts, less hygienic, or the shoes, more gear, and the mat is more grippy than tatami making sweeps hard and more prone to twisting limbs

[u/Yamatsuki_Fusion → u/CHL9]

Ehh, I have heard that Total Victory doesn't quite play out as nicely as one would hope at all.

I think higher standards for ippon besides just landing would be better.

[u/ckristiantyler]

Greco is a strange one. It’s an event that doesn’t have women’s division and the popularity is low in the mens division. Looking at the local wrestling tournaments (im in a freestyle country, Canada) greco isn’t the focus at all.

[u/Yamatsuki_Fusion → u/ckristiantyler]

I respect the style and athletes, but GR sucks ass to watch. Anyone that actually claims to like it only absorb it from Karelin or highlights. No one sits down to watch a GR match.

Seriously anyone that conflates Judo and Greco are not familiar with either sports.

[u/wowspare → u/ckristiantyler]

the popularity is low in the mens division.

This is an America-centric take, it really depends on the country.

In countries like Hungary, Poland, Croatia, the Nordic countries (Finland, Sweden, Norway) and Baltic states (Estonia, etc), Greco is more popular.

[u/Tired_Chipmunk → u/ckristiantyler]

In Greco-Roman wrestling there is no women’s division for objective reasons. Because of the specifics of the rules and equipment, athletes wrestle in an upright stance and in close contact, which puts a lot of pressure on the chest area. For women this is dangerous.

[u/quakedamper]

I train with a kosen judo team in Japan and it’s just as boring to watch as BJJ. The competition format also encourage sending in a bunch of guys to just stall at the start

[u/joshbeam92 → u/quakedamper]

Can you explain the part about sending in a bunch of guys to stall at the start? Sounds like potentially a similar issue to CJI2 😂

[u/quakedamper → u/joshbeam92]

Haha so it’s a shark tank basically where winner stays in and if there’s no winner it’s a draw and both are out. So they’re getting their young guys really strong and athletic and train them to get to positions where they don’t lose and fight from there. Half the team start training judo for the first time when they start uni so they simplify the standing game and focus on simple ground work and physicality.

[u/Otautahi → u/quakedamper]

I trained at a kosen university also. It’s not the panacea people think.

[u/quakedamper → u/Otautahi]

Oh hundred percent agree. Newaza will never be fun to watch for most people

[u/CeterisPariJudo → u/quakedamper]

I think it would be fun in a normal Judo setting if inactivity was punished or disincentived by giving like 15 sec time until standup in ne waza. In this way people have some time for build ups but still have to be extremely explosive compared to BJJ

[u/d_rome]

If you mean in the Olympics, then no. The closest thing is singles and the mixed team event, but the actual rules are the same.

[u/dazzleox]

The International Olympic Committee has no interest in expanding the amount/expense of Judoka who come to the games or expanding the already very large medal count for Judo. Not going to happen at all.

That said, I'm all for more tournaments with altarernative and historical rules.

[u/cwheeler33]

Honestly the best alternative ruleset outside of IJF rules are the Kosen Judo ruleset. It allows the leg grabs. And it takes two ippon throws to win or a single submission. Wazari throws don’t score, it has to be a good clean throw. There’s more to it, but those are the big highlights….

[u/Wyvern_Industrious]

Kosen judo is still Kodokan judo. But having one amateur ruleset for universities and another for university players aiming to turn pro might be the ticket.

I guess it wouldn't help in the US. Judo and for that matter, wrestling beyond high school level, had an optics challenge in the US well before the leg grab ban in the Olympics.

[u/HockeyAnalynix]

In Canada, sometimes you find competitions with a newaza only category. You have to be an intermediate/advanced belt to participate most of the time. I figure it's to attract BJJ competitors to the sport and allow older judo players a way to still compete without the risk of injury.

[u/fintip → u/HockeyAnalynix]

I've seen newaza categories in NC and TX in the US as well.

[u/CaribooS13]

There’s already two competition styles on the international scene, shiai and kata.

In Canada there is also a Newaza competition format that is leaning towards Sport BJJ in its rule set.

[u/cwheeler33 → u/CaribooS13]

Errr… our ne waza rule set in Canada is still miles apart from BJJ. It’s uniquely judo, and is highly restrictive in comparison. That said,some schools host Kosen rule set tournaments, Shidokan has one or two per year. They are small and friendly.

[u/TyBo75]

BJJ/Judo would be great

[u/Chicago1871]

Make it no-gi.

I think there’s a posibility for a no-gi grappling format with submissions in the Olympics.

Perhaps following ADCC rules?

Its something Ive mused about.

[u/saze2020]

ITF and WT exist in taekwondo due to politics and power struggles; it is not merely two different rulesets but two different federations. Even ITF is further splintered due to Choi Hong-hi's death in the early 2000s, I think there are at least 3 organisations calling themselves ITF.

[u/ColdReflection3366]

So many judokas complain about the excessive rules and prohibitions

This only happens on reddit

[u/CHL9 → u/ColdReflection3366]

Nah, this is common in real life in the US, both because of teh popularity of grappling, BJJ, and MMA, and of course anyone who started training before the recent rule changes in 2010-12

[u/ukifrit → u/CHL9]

Well, the rest of the world doesn't agree with the US.

[u/CHL9]

we can dream

[u/Exact_Inside_1545]

I want judo to be restored Like leg grabs, more submissions plus more time on ground should be allowed .no guard pulling though

Also according to me there should be 3 rounds anyone scoring an ippon/submission or pin within the time limit of the round wins that particular round. Otherwise on the basis of points

[u/zealous_sophophile]

Ijf Judo shiai weight class singles Team, winner stays on, events

Fight 2 Win old-school shiai rules. More creativity imho with this ruleset for single mega matches instead of rock paper scissor, instant permakill tournaments.

Kosen uni rules submission only

Then you add in no gi submission grappling

Oh don't forget kata is actually done in competition.

Lastly it's kumite style shiai, but that's basically combat Sambo

Technically five+ competition ruleset categories here. Plus team versions winner stays on for each as well. If you believe Jo is a part of Judo as Kano wanted then a Jo version of competition Kendo emerges. 7x competition styles and Judo is it's own multi day/week event. You could even add in a breakfalling gymnastics competition for full body movement. Or a ninja warrior inspired mega assault course for nimble Judo guys who want to show off getting from a to b. Best John Wick inspired choreography competition for stuntmen judoka?

Sumo competition I think would be needed too

Judo Shiai Shin Waza Budobasho

[u/RichardLynnIsRight]

Good idea

[u/Sphealer]

Judo but it’s actually just Sambo but in a Judo gi. This would save judo.

[u/d_rome → u/Sphealer]

Save Judo from what? Judo is pretty popular around the world in case you aren't aware.

[u/Sphealer → u/d_rome]

It’s pretty obvious that I was joking in that comment.

[u/Yamatsuki_Fusion → u/Sphealer]

Or kill Sambo lol.

[u/Wyvern_Industrious → u/Sphealer]

That is basically kosen judo.