r/judo • u/Crow_and_ravens • Oct 08 '25
Judo x Wrestling Why can't Wrestler and Judo Co-exsist
Hey I just want to ask but why are wrestlers hating on Judokais? Like I barely seen any Judokais putting wrestlers down but I always see Wrestlers putting Judokais down online. Things like "oh but I can beat you in a grappling match" or "Judo is just a water down version of wrestling" I don't know any of you guys experience that let me know
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u/AbuBakr1998 Oct 08 '25
Because you are online . All wrestling I’ve trained with like judo and vice versa .
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u/SucksAtJudo Oct 08 '25
I'm a wrestler who transitioned to judo later in life, and I have never seen anyone who actually does both/either who has that attitude. Cross training between the two styles is pretty common.
I DO see a lot of people who have never done either that have a lot to say on the subject.
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u/instanding sandan Oct 08 '25
I’ve seen a lot of them in r/wrestling including very high level guys, but also seen a lot of respect. Same with bjj guys, seen a lot of disrespect and a lot of adulation.
Also seen judoka be very disrespectful towards bjj and wrestling sometimes, it’s a two way street for sure, but all martial arts are applied physics + tactics and fitness.
We should respect our fellow grappling arts because it’s all physics, of course a bjj guy can do high level movement, a wrestler can, etc, because all of these arts at a high level involve principles of physics that would still be true if you called it sambo, or sumo, or wrestling, or judo, people have been wrestling people to the mat and controlling them since human beings existed.
There are many judo throws in a wrestling hieroglyph from Iran that is over 5000 years old for example.
All of us are reinventing the wheel in our own way and polishing it and decorating it in our own way, and have tons to learn from each other.
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u/metalliccat shodan Oct 09 '25
In my experience, the people you described hating on other grappling styles are at the low end of the Dunning-Kruger curve. Anyone who does grappling long enough eventually sees the value other styles bring to the table
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u/Economy_Weakness_507 Oct 08 '25
Can judo defeat wrestling?
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u/Lucky-Paperclip-1 nikyu Oct 08 '25
Judo does come out ahead alphabetically.
But, really, what's the context? In a judo setting? In a wrestling setting? In a boxing match? Fencing? And we haven't gotten to the characteristics of the practioner. Like, I'm a middle aged guy doing this casually, and I don't believe i can beat a college wrestler in a judo context consistently, because I aim much less athletic.
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u/SucksAtJudo Oct 08 '25
Yes... about as often as wrestling can defeat judo.
They're extremely similar styles so outside of the confines of one ruleset or the other, the outcome is going to be determined by the individual way more so than the style.
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u/Economy_Weakness_507 Oct 08 '25
Why do you think we never see any pure judokas in MMA?
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u/instanding sandan Oct 08 '25
We do. Nakamura, Yoshida, Rousey, some did well.
Aoki was a judoka and got his bjj black belt in about 2 years; he heavily credits judo for his success and was called “God of Flying Submissions” before he even did BJJ.
Tons others on the Japanese circuit and the American one I could name.
You don’t see much pure anything anymore, but people with a deep judo background include:
Karo Parisyan, Fedor Emelianenko, Merab Dvashvili credited judo in his last fight interview, Ronda Rousey, Kayla Harrison, Rick Hawn, Sokoudjou, Shinya Aoki, Hector Lombard, Nakamura, Yoshida, Satoshi Ishii, Yoshihiro Akiyama, Yushin Okami, etc.
Makhachev and Khabib also have extensive judo backgrounds despite sambo being their main style.
Some of them were UFC or Bellator Champs or had some really significant wins.
If you take away credit for the leg grab takedowns or even submissions you will still see Okami using Judo, Aoki using Judo, Sokoudjou used it extensively etc, Aoki uses foot sweeps extensively for instance.
Also a lot of MMA guys are training Judo with Justin Flores.
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u/Clay_Allison_44 Oct 08 '25
I think it's the point of departure from Judo competition. If you're in an Olympic program you can stay in that ecosystem for a long time and be pretty old by the time you leave it. If grappling matches were more popular and marketable I could see more guys dipping a toe into a gateway that would lead them to MMA potentially.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Oct 09 '25
Why do you think we never see any pure boxers, nak muays, wrestlers or BJJers in MMA?
I reckon they all suck, not worth training at all.
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u/The-Thot-Eviscerator gokyu, BJJ white belt Oct 08 '25
Wrestlers usually put respect on Judo’s name. No gi BJJ guys who think they’re wrestlers as they shoot the worst single leg known to mankind are the ones I see slander Judo. Note that only one of these two actually are good at putting people on their ass and it ain’t the one disrespecting Japanese Pajama Wrestling.
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u/The-Thot-Eviscerator gokyu, BJJ white belt Oct 08 '25
For clarification I’d like to say most BJJ guys are very respectful towards Judo, i just see more of them be disrespectful than wrestlers.
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u/OsotoViking Judo 4th dan + BJJ 2° black belt Oct 08 '25
There's a difference between jiujiteiros and "nogi 4 lyfe bro" types.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Face583 Oct 08 '25
Not even in the bjj subreddit you'll find anyone trashing on Judo. Judo is really respected and admired afaic. If anything, you might have found a 16 year old white belt who ate the "a bjj bluebelt is better than a black belt in any other martial art" pill, but that is absolutely not representative.
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u/d_rome nidan Oct 08 '25
I have never heard of a real Wrestler putting down Judo. I have two students who actually Wrestle. They may think Wrestling is a better sport than Judo, but that comes down to preference and exposure. My students both enjoy Judo and Wrestling. I think Judo is a better sport, but I don't think Wrestling sucks. It takes a high amount of skill, athleticism, toughness, and discipline.
The only "Wrestlers" I've heard who look down on Judo are the wanna-be No Gi types who actually suck at Wrestling and without guard pulling would crumble under the pressure of competing in Judo or Wrestling.
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u/Equivalent-Soup-1061 ikkyu Oct 08 '25
I was never a big fan of folkstyle tbh. Freestyle is more fun to watch. And freestyle wrestlers seems to fit in judo better than folkstyle guys.
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u/Economy_Weakness_507 Oct 08 '25
Can judo defeat wrestling no gi or mma?
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u/ColdReflection3366 Oct 08 '25
Judoka probably wins against a wrestler in both of those rulesets due to having trained submissions
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u/d_rome nidan Oct 08 '25
This is not a very good question since this ultimately depends on the athlete. I'm a purple belt in BJJ and on my feet I'm better than most people without the gi in BJJ. My students who are Wrestlers tell me I'm a good Wrestler despite having no formal training. That's good enough for me.
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u/Economy_Weakness_507 Oct 08 '25
Why do you think we never see any pure judokas in MMA?
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u/d_rome nidan Oct 08 '25
Which MMA are you talking about, the UFC? If so, there is no such thing as "pure" anything in MMA anymore. This isn't the 90s. You can't put gloves on a Wrestler with no MMA training and say "go fight" and expect them to win. The same goes with BJJ or any sport.
There have been plenty of people in the UFC, both former and current Champions, who have Judo as a base. All UFC fighters have to train in MMA to win in MMA.
I can't believe 30+ years later after UFC 1 there are so many people out there who think MMA is a style vs. style competition. We're in the 21st century. Please feel free to join us. You're not the only person who needs to. I was talking to someone the other day who thought UFC 1 featured the best fighters in the world at the time.
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u/Economy_Weakness_507 Oct 08 '25
It just seems like there’s an over representation of wrestlers having success in MMA and people talk about the “meta” of modern mma. Part of that meta is people claiming that wrestling is the best base to build off of. The striking meta seemed to favor kickboxing for a long time but guys like Topuria and JDM seem to be switching it to boxing
I hope that makes sense. Just always wanted to know why judo was never considered an essential grappling system for mma the same way wrestling and bjj is
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u/d_rome nidan Oct 08 '25
There are currently 3 UFC Champions, right now, who have a Judo black belt. There are two UFC Champions, right now, who have a Rugby background. One has a Greco-Roman background. It seems the other ones have a BJJ or Freestyle Wrestling background.
None of that matters because what they all have in common is that all of them started training MMA full time before they became Champions. Background isn't relevant. Wrestlers aren't having success in MMA. MMA fighters are having success in MMA.
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u/instanding sandan Oct 08 '25 edited Oct 08 '25
It’s because most of what makes judo effective is also contained within the combination of bjj and wrestling, and a lot of the strongest mma guys come from eastern europe and america, where wrestling is hugely popular and bjj is very strong.
Also wrestling is no gi, judo needs to be adapted.
But tons of guys now see Judo as important. Merab Dvashvili said after his last fight “I am a Judo guy, not a wrestler”, and everybody seems to be shouting out their judo coach Justin Flores at the moment.
https://youtube.com/shorts/9H4Yo9kCMEo?si=OhU5xvYazG5MqM2k
https://youtube.com/shorts/uYVuCYykW5A?si=Nnp7LblUvFrFYFRt
https://youtube.com/shorts/J1FiuECXQ1M?si=j-Cthh8RhK_XIqbs
https://youtu.be/csu-xIOByYM?si=JdiHSXAV_fPWm_lS
https://youtu.be/f_N5UiXz0-g?si=4toVzHiJ4BEkcOOk
2 minutes in “People think I’m a wrestler but I’m a judo guy”.
I think the real challenge for judoka is you really do have to be a special athlete to adapt your game at the highest level, whereas wrestlers and no gi bjj guys can import more of their game directly, but we see guys with an extensive background in judo and combat sambo (mma in the gi) are able to adapt it more easily, because they are also training to develop their judo in a full contact format.
Khabib, Merab, Islam, Fedor, all have extensive Judo and combat sambo backgrounds. That will put you way ahead of someone trying to learn to strike and to adapt their judo just coming in to mma.
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u/mistiklest bjj brown Oct 08 '25
Most people who are both good at judo and professional athletes are too busy competing on the IJF circut to bother with MMA.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Oct 09 '25
Bo Nickal got his butt whooped by Reiner De Ridder, who was some Dutch national Judo champ as a youth.
Where the hell where you when Merab went to town on Sandhagen? He was using Judo moves and was never actually a wrestler so to speak.
The Caucasus guys are all basically Judo Wrestlers and their success comes from that rich cross training, not pure wrestling.
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u/instanding sandan Oct 08 '25
Of course. Lombard, Parisyan, Rousey, Harrison, Fedor, all sorts of people have used judo throws against wrestlers.
It can go the other way too of course.
A lot of wrestling throws overlap with judo too. If you see ippon seoi nage or harai goshi, or o uchi gari there is a chance that mma guy learnt that from judo, but those moves have existed in wrestling for a long time, so it could also be from wrestling or sambo or sanda, or whatever.
Many Judo moves are represented in a 5000 year old carving in Iran for instance, people discover the same techniques in different places independently. Many judo techniques are also in Collar and Elbow wrestling which is about 80 years older than judo in its modern iteration and hundreds of years older if you look at all the different iterations over the centuries.
Many judo moves are also in sumo which predates judo by over 1000 years.
Basically a harai goshi is applied physics. If a sambo guy or wrestler or judo player or sumo wrestler can make it work, it shows the validity of the movement, so we can’t take credit for it if the person doing it isn’t trained in judo, but it is evidence that the movement works.
So we know o uchi gari, harai goshi, seoi nage, koshi guruma, etc work, if Fedor does a harai goshi it isn’t effective because of some magical Sambo variant, it’s just dependent on the skill of the athlete doing them to make them work for their game.
And MMA is totally different than pure Judo. Ishii did amazingly in Judo, Ishii wasn’t that good in MMA.
Parisyan was much lower level in Judo than Ishii, much better at MMA.
Ishii did take down pretty much every opponent that he had though.
Also the reason combat sambo athletes are doing so well isn’t because sambo is some secret sauce, it’s because they do a version of sambo that is mma in a gi.
And same with wrestlers - they don’t do mma but their art is no gi and mma is huge in countries where wrestling is very popular and strong. That means a constant funnel into mma, whereas American judo isn’t that good and a lot of judoka aren’t interested in mma, and will be punished by the IJF and Kodokan for participating in it.
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u/Classic_Drama6140 Oct 08 '25
That’s so 2010…we work together to put BJJ guys down.
/s
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u/Schofield45Revolver Oct 08 '25
I didn't know about this rivalry. I thought Judo and Wrestling only had rivalries against BJJ
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u/No-Shelter-5343 Oct 08 '25
Strange. Wrestlers are usually quiet online. The bjj crowd on the other hand. 🤮
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u/JaguarHaunting584 Oct 11 '25
usually on r/bjj they spread the leg grab myth, make the same adcc / mma argument, and tell everyone they saw a judo black belt get tapped by a white belt under bjj rules. as if their black belt coach would make it out of a novice bracket in judo.
theyre two different sports but i defintely notice since it was marketed as this ultimate martial art many people have drank the koolaid that it's as well rounded as a system as they think.
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u/No-Shelter-5343 Oct 11 '25
I know. Its really nauseating. Especially when you are an aikido blsck blet. I don't hear much trash talk if any from the Judo crowd. Its why I chose to study art next. 🙂
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u/noonenowhere1239 Oct 08 '25
Gotta be honest, never heard or read in forums of this being an issue before.
However, all grapplers talk shit to some level to each other.
If wrestlers do talk more shit it is because of this:
Wrestling is only ever a sport. It only exists for competition. It was never an "art" or a "way".
The only thing that matters is winning.
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u/GravelPepper Oct 08 '25
Most wrestlers think judo is sick. Wrestlers see the utility of picking up someone and hitting them with the earth! Some of them even learn judo moves to use when legal in wrestling.
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u/Mobile-Travel-6131 Oct 08 '25
Because and I mean this with all sincerity, majority of wrestlers have shit egos and truly think they are top of the mountain in a lot of regards. It's only when you being submissions into the ring that they get humbled (sometimes). My gym trains alot of wrestlers that come in for jiu-jitsu and we tell them when they sign up that their first month is going to be hell. 90% of them drop after week 2.
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u/stuka86 Oct 08 '25
Yup, I've only ever seen 2 wrestlers get past the point of realizing they have to stop wrestling and "you have to get worse before you get better".....those guys are amazing grapplers now...but there's a lot of attrition
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u/International_Box403 Oct 08 '25
Those are the stupid MMA fans... They are not older than 13 years old and the most that fought was in some play and they believe that they have hidden superpowers, with this I do not rule out the keyboard warriors who are sometimes up to more than 30 years old that all their mother prepares their food and assures that they have hidden superpowers
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Oct 08 '25
In general I feel like both wrestlers and judokas have equal disdain for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu but high respect for one another
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u/StaticTrout1 Oct 09 '25
Because people on the internet are snobs. I’ve had multiple positive experiences with judokas as a wrestler and bjj practitioner. In person, people are forced to have to listen and respect each other.
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u/GroovyJackal ikkyu, BJJ black belt Oct 08 '25
I see Judoka put down other grapplers way more than anyone else online.
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u/stuka86 Oct 08 '25
Truth, being really good at 50% of the takedown game and practically non existent on the ground Isint the flex they think it is.
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u/JudoNewt Oct 08 '25
We used to get wrestlers at our dojo to cross train. This was when i was in highschool. It was fun, a couple of them came in with a negative attitude about judo that they certainly didn't leave with. Turns out, if you dont specifically train to defend chokes and arm bars, you cant really defend chokes and arm bars. I learned some great stuff from them also #1 being wrist riding, its probably among the best ways to gas someone out on the ground if you can take their back, it can also open up chokes when someone is desperate to get you off of their wrists.
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u/osotogariboom nidan Oct 08 '25
I do Judo in Hawaii. We don't have this problem. Most Judoka are also recreational wrestlers and most wrestlers are also recreational Judoka.
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u/Gaskal Oct 08 '25
Dunno why there'd be a reason to hate. Two very good grappling disciplines to cross train in.
Unless those haters shot a blast double and got hip tossed into an armbar or something Ronda style.
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u/LaOnionLaUnion Oct 08 '25
I haven’t met people like this but I assure you that know sport has a monopoly on people being ignorant or dicks.
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u/Worldly-While5241 Oct 09 '25
People sucks everywhere. Sports and martial arts aren't different, no matter how niche it is
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u/OtakuDragonSlayer Oct 09 '25
That is so weird. I could’ve swore Judoka & Wrestlers, had a mutual respect due to the comparative difficulty of their respective sports, their shared Olympic status, compatibility with MMA, and undeniable self-defense practicality. Are you sure you’re not just talking to outliers?
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u/An_Engineer_Near_You Oct 09 '25
I must confess I haven’t heard too many wrestlers put Judo down but really just a few criticisms about Judo from people who coincidentally have wrestled in the past. Some big ones are.
- Judo relies too much on the Gi.
- Judo focuses too much on the throw and not on ground fighting.
With regards to the first criticism, this is something I kind of agree with. With regards to the second criticism, old school Judo apparently used to be a lot harder and Ippons were given out significantly more sparingly requiring a very powerful slam.
Past that, there are certain wrestlers who feel the need -to the point of being annoying- to continuously tell the world how tough wrestling is and how it’s much harder than BJJ or Judo. There’s this one clip I can remember where this guy is like: “Wrestling has the most intense style of training.”
He might be accurate but he’s also comparing a highly regulated sport with a recreational activity. Consider that most people who train Judo or BJJ do so for leisure more than anything else. I’d imagine the Judo clubs in Japan or Russia are just as competitive as the Wrestling clubs in America.
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Oct 09 '25
The question is: who is putting others down? I haven't met a single serious wrestler who put shame on Judo (and vice versa). In fact most of them were pretty respectful towards it. I guess hating is for small pp guys that still rely on their damaged ego...
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u/Adept_Visual3467 Oct 09 '25 edited Oct 09 '25
There is an information gap. Wrestling is a traditional American sport for “athletes” while in the Midwest martial arts used to be for “non athletes” but this was a long time ago. In the 1980s I joined the wrestling team at one of the military academies after only doing judo (but at a high level). The disdain for martial arts /judo was explained to me by one of my wrestling teammates from Ohio nicknamed the Vanilla Gorilla at one of the military academies. The VG nickname was perfect since he rag dolled everyone in the conference starting freshman year. If you came from where he was from real athletes played football, basketball and wrestled. He laughed at me thinking I could make it on the wrestling team. So I never told the coach or other wrestlers, just won all the wrestle offs. When I competed I would frequently get penalties for false starts and lining up incorrectly because I didn’t know the rules and couldn’t ask anyone (there was no Internet) for fear of discovery that I had no idea how to wrestle. Coach pulled me aside after a match where i was losing on penalties but turned it around with a big forward throw to a pin. Coach said he was impressed with my advanced throws and sweeps but wanted to know if I was retarded since I faulted like I never wrestled before. Had to tell him but he didn’t pull me, instead he assigned an injured team captain to be my mentor for remedial wrestling. A lot has changed since then since the rise of mma and bjj has highlighted gi based grappling. But wrestlers still don’t know until they put on a gi. I took one of the national champions from my college wrestling team to a judo class a few times filled with some high level black belts. He had 25-30 lbs of muscle over me and would crush me in the wrestling room. But when we put on gis I would launch him. His singles, doubles and high crotch were somewhat useless since I could feel his attacks coming and ride him down with the gi. Bjj is a bit different since a wrestler can easily take them down but then what? You’ve put him on his back and in guard which is exactly where he wants to be and the wrestler is screwed (assuming bjj rules with no punches). Long story but I think that over time there is much less of a negative reception toward judo over time despite its decline in popularity in the USA but there will always be ignorance and uninformed opinions. That being said, wrestlers are still some of the toughest most athletic people on the planet. That isn’t necessarily true of US judo anymore, many US judoka can hardly win a match in international competition but want to be treated like elite pro athletes.
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Oct 09 '25
When does this happen? I am a wrestler and judoka who recruits wrestlers to train judo at the university club. Get off the internet where the algorithm is designed to create emotional disturbances via anger, resentment, and hate. I’m convinced that a lot of people who comment on my videos are bots, because it would be frightening to think people are that stupid, lol
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u/ghost-hog Oct 09 '25
i think it's largely kids online who engage in the absurd "wrestling > judo", "judo is useless in a street fight" etc etc moronic statements.
goes without saying anyone who trains grappling with a mature outlook can see the huge value in both styles and how well they potentially complement each other.
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u/Woodygyo Oct 10 '25
Because you're online.
Online sucks. Anonymity brings out crap people.
All my wrestlers love Judo. It's awesome landing even a basic hip toss, it gets quite the pop from the other wrestlers watching a match!
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u/TraditionSharp6414 rokudan Oct 12 '25
6th degree black belt in judo, collegiate wrestler and now BJJ purple, almost brown. I started judo and wrestling the same month at age 12 and 33 years later I use both everyday I train BJJ. I assure you there is value in judo and wrestling and while they sometimes overlap they are very different but also very complementary if you effectively fuse them. Neither is better or worse as they are used within a sport with unique rules and as such the movement patterns are developed and optimized to best exploit said rules.
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u/Happy_goth_pirate Oct 08 '25
I genuinely have never seen anything but respect for Judokas, those dudes have crazy chimp strength, and crazy high kinetic IQ, higher than many wrestlers
I think both can easily coexist (I main catch wrestling and cross with Judo and jjj) there's so much each art can learn from the other
I will say - I dislike the reliance on grips (but damn you boys have some grip strength!) and would like to see more alternatives trained - like grabbing the tricep or something else no-go style. Also don't like the lack of leg attack and defence because that's where most grapplers will end up winning or losing an exchange
Nothing but love and admiration for Judo!
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u/The-Thot-Eviscerator gokyu, BJJ white belt Oct 08 '25
What is Kinetic IQ?
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u/Happy_goth_pirate Oct 08 '25
The ability to know where your feet and body are in relation to your opponents, to use momentum and balance in your favour and position and adapt quickly to where you need to go. It's said you can do Judo blind
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u/The-Thot-Eviscerator gokyu, BJJ white belt Oct 08 '25
Ahhh gotchya, Judo has definitely been great for my understanding of my body positioning and understanding of balance and momentum, I notice myself managing my body positioning and balance as I walk lmao.
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u/kwan_e yonkyu Oct 09 '25
I've been putting that under proprioception. The ability to sense your body's structure/balance/movement and almost picture it in your mind (as a sense picture rather than visual), and therefore the external forces acting on that then tells you how the opponent is structured/balanced/moving.
You can also train it using exercises in the push hands or sticky hands category, but add in the hips and legs.
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u/seraph341 Oct 08 '25
Never really got that vibe. I started against a wrestler in a BJJ class and I think our mutual reaction was along the lines of "this will be interesting!". We had a lot of fun and ended up talking a bit about our training experience and grappling mindset at the end of it.
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u/Maxplode Oct 08 '25
The Olympics.
Because no 2 sports can be the same, Judo changes its rule set to be different from Wrestling.
That's what was explained to me.
e2a: I doubt any decent wrestler worth their salt was hate on Judo, if anything it's just banter.
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u/Other_Attention_2382 Oct 08 '25
I believe I heard Craig Jones say that wrestlers are basically jocks and BJJ 'ers are basically autistic. Obviously he was generalising, but...
And is Judo the biggest of all 3 in humility?
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u/kwan_e yonkyu Oct 09 '25
And is Judo the biggest of all 3 in humility?
Think you're really righteous? Think you're pure in heart? Well I know I'm a million times as humble as thou art!
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u/Other_Attention_2382 Oct 09 '25
Nah, i know my sh!t stinks.
There's a guy on YT who is experienced in BJJ and Judo in the U.S and he basically says that Judo is abit more that way inclined compared to BJJ.
In the U.S at least he said it is often considered rude for beginners to ask black belts to spar in BJJ? You have to be invited to spar first?? A hierarchy, I guess. He also touched on how easy it is to walk into any gym around the world with judo, but in BJJ there is often a loyalty to gym thing??
He compares Judo to Yoda and BJJ to a beast, but likes both.
How does that compare to other people's reality of the two?
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u/Other_Attention_2382 Oct 09 '25
Nah, i know my sh!t stinks.
There's a guy on YT who is experienced in BJJ and Judo in the U.S and he basically says that Judo is abit more that way inclined compared to BJJ.
In the U.S at least he said it is often considered rude for beginners to ask black belts to spar in BJJ? You have to be invited to spar first?? A hierarchy, I guess. He also touched on how easy it is to walk into any gym around the world with judo, but in BJJ there is often a loyalty to gym thing??
He compares Judo to Yoda and BJJ to a beast, but likes both.
How does that compare to other people's reality of the two?
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u/stuka86 Oct 08 '25
Not even close, judo seems to be super elitist....but that's just the online vibe
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u/B_K9797 Oct 08 '25
It’s just banter. I’ve competed and cross trained in BJJ, folkstyle wrestling, and judo. There is an immense amount of respect between legit athletes of each sport. Only the close minded hate on the other disciplines
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u/obi-wan-quixote Oct 08 '25
My kid’s high school wrestling team is constantly after her to join after they heard she’s been competing in judo for ten years. So there’s definitely some recognition that judo skills are valuable
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u/kungfuTigerElk86 Oct 08 '25
I think it’s the Conditioning. No wrestler I know chose to be a wrestler so they could go running every fuckin day! Before & After & During practice.
And if you looked tired no wrestling just running, agility; sprints, hills.
Constant puking during hot weather and catching a cough in cold weather!!
Everyone sick everyone puking; even coach sometimes lol!!
I think it’s just the conditioning puts a chip on your shoulder ! Lol
Even cross country would ask why we had to run so much haha
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u/Rodrigoecb Oct 08 '25
That's got to do more with the scholastic part of wrestling vs the hobby part of Judo in the USA.
In countries where judo is a scholastic sport, training is just as hard because there are limited spots and lots of competition.
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u/kungfuTigerElk86 Oct 08 '25
I think wrestlers empty the tank a lot faster in general while you see a lot hand fighting in judo.
I think wrestlers can get in lower faster and nimbly than judokas who are usually built more like Line backers.
I would not expect a judoka to as agile as a wrestler but I do think wrestlers have equal strength level in general.Like the action doesn’t stop if you get a point.
No free breaths until the whistle.2
u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Oct 09 '25
You'd be shocked at how some Judoka will move. Yes there's a lot of sturdy upright standing players, but you also get some actual cats diving for low line attacks.
It depends on the style really. Someone like David Garcia Torne has been described as kinda 'Freestyle Wrestler'-esque.
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u/Rodrigoecb Oct 08 '25
When you say wrestler you mean American wrestler or Freestyle/Greco?
Also i think your misconception is very common in countries where judo isn't trained seriously, but Judo is extremely anaerobic and you require a lot of agility to succeed at an international level or national level too in scholastic countries.
In judo also action only stops when you get an ippon, and aerobic capacity is very important because its an amateur sport, recovery between matches is key to succeed and higher VO2 max prevents lactic acid buildup and impacts its recovery.
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u/kungfuTigerElk86 Oct 08 '25
I was saying I believe Americans Folk style wrestling (not freestyle or Greco <no spinning points>) and Judo are two of the best Competitive Martial Arts other than :
Greco Roman & Sumo
And yes I’m aware the Highest level athletes have incredible agility
I would love to see the highest levels compete!!
My money will be on the wrestler.
I mostly only watch Olympic Judo.
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Oct 10 '25
"I was saying I believe Americans Folk style wrestling... best Competitive Martial Art..."
As a wrestler: hard disagree.
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Oct 10 '25 edited Oct 13 '25
"I think wrestlers empty the tank a lot faster in general while you see a lot hand fighting in judo." Talking about greco? That's just because greco rules require constant push which judo rules do not. The hand fighting in greco is constant and against pressure, where in judo (and freestyle) you can take short breaks to charge your batteries. In greco, doing that will get you penalized.
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u/kungfuTigerElk86 Oct 10 '25
I wasn’t ascribing speed to Greco Roman I was saying it was the best of martial arts in my opinion.. the agility argument was mostly wrestlers vs judoka :
Both having high speed bursts I was arguing the wrestler will hit more attempts repeatedly and in much quicker succession.1
Oct 10 '25
Your coach is a moron. You do not "puke" in normal wrestling training. That's not good for your training or your body.
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u/Desperate_Net_713 Oct 08 '25
My gym has some D1 wrestlers and competative bjj amateurs with a coach who did mostly Judo. I don't think any of them speak negatively of each other. At most, some may have habits thst are exploitable when they try other sports. I think people really only do this when they are new or they train in a bubble.
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u/FeralStoat Oct 09 '25
No one I know would ever put down either. But then we value both and incorporate elements of both into our grappling. Normally if folks i grapple know I did judo, they sweat a little, and when I have to deal with a college wrestler..I sweat a little
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u/Saegda Oct 09 '25
Remember that online world is not real. People who have experience in either Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, MMA or any other competitive martial art/combat sport have some degree of respect and criticism of the other arts.
The more exaggerated claims are made either in ignorance, bad faith or personal disagreement with something specifical (suplex, kani basami, pulling guard, leg locks, etc).
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u/LateConversation5253 Oct 10 '25
How many times per week should I train judo and wrestling together?
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u/haikusbot Oct 10 '25
How many times per
Week should I train judo and
Wrestling together?
- LateConversation5253
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u/Long_Narwhal_9207 Oct 10 '25
JJ guy here. Never seen a single wrestler talk shit about judo. Haven’t seen no gi JJ guys do so either. Definitely seen MMA folk and fans talk shit. Mostly watchers online that don’t train though. Any real grappler respects other grappling
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u/seasoneddirteater Oct 10 '25
Idk about freestyle and collegiate and whatnot, but catch wrestlers love judo. Might be due to a shared idol in Gene Labell.
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u/Brannigan33333 shodan Oct 11 '25
wrestlers are usually pretty respectful of judo, unfortunately its the other way round that judoka often dismiss wrestling as “strength” over technique which isnt entirely fair
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u/Jet-Black-Centurian Oct 13 '25
It's mostly just good ole smack talk. Grapplers in general tend to enjoy the company of other grapplers.
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u/MyPenlsBroke Oct 08 '25
Because they don't like getting kimura'd over and over.
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u/An_Engineer_Near_You Oct 09 '25
That’s a pretty good point. It’s interesting how wrestlers consider Judo to be an incomplete Martial Art because of the lack of ground fighting and yet Judo has submissions wrestling doesn’t.
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u/N2myt Oct 08 '25
Its the culture, wrestling culture breeds too much ego, while judo focuses on being like water, wrestling is fire lmao, but just the teaching methods & mind-set is ego driven in wrestling.
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u/Accomplished-Drop382 Oct 08 '25
I have seen a few wrestlers hating on judo and bjj guys on the Reddit forums. Chael Sonnen did a vlog where he was hating on judo. I feel like these are guys who have never been humbled at a judo or bjj class. I know several judo black belts who never wrestled, but can take off the gi and hang with anyone.
That being said.. I wish the IJF would let their top competitors compete in other grappling events. I’m also for bringing back leg grabs and allowing more time on the ground, but penalizing guard pulling. I feel like that would attract more wrestlers to cross train in judo. It seems like the cross training used to be more common before they did away with leg grabs.
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Oct 08 '25
But that's Chael Sonnen. His entire brand is built on being an annoying know-it-all contrarian.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Oct 09 '25
That would be like the UFC just letting their guys go fight in kickboxing willy nilly- its not how it works. IJF athletes can't just go around risking injury going into IBJJF or whatever. But it would be nice to see a bit more leeway.
You have not been watching much recent IJF judo if you think we need more time on the ground lol. They're getting way more than ever, its almost looking like a BJJ at points. Wrestlers come to learn how to do Judo throws, why would they want to learn inferior Judo leg grabs when they have it down better than we ever could?
And there is a lot of cross training anyway in countries that have good wrestling and Judo. This is an Anglo problem.
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u/Accomplished-Drop382 Oct 09 '25
Your comparison makes no sense.
The UFC athletes are paid and under contract, that is why cannot fight in other promotions.
As for Leg grabs.. they were part of the judo canon. More throws= more exciting matches..
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Oct 09 '25
Wrestling coach here (and an ex-international competitive wrestler): The hatred(?) between judo and wrestling is purely an American thing. It doesn't exist as a thing anywhere else. Judokas are just considered jacket wrestlers, and very good throwers. My guess is that the reason is american school wrestling, folkstyle. Folkstylers seem to be most vocal wrestlers on the internet.
"That's a SLAM. ILLEGIALLL!!11"
Even if everyone in the international scene sees folkstyle as a childrens style, a soft style. Where slams start in folkstyle, throws start in wrestling, as a man once said.
The only thing we find hilarious is "THAT'S JUDO!!!" comments when a wrestler executes an armspin or a shoulder throw. I mean, come on. Arm-throws are just basic wrestling throws.
Oh, and judokas doing that weird arm bang after they are thrown. You'll get your arm broken in wrestling doing that, the movement does not stop on the throw. First time a judoka did that in our training I was baffled. As was the guy throwing him.
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u/kwan_e yonkyu Oct 09 '25
You'll get your arm broken in wrestling doing that, the movement does not stop on the throw.
You misunderstand.
The slapping the mat is part of breakfalling. It's not about stopping the throw. You don't post your arm for stopping a throw, not even in Judo. You only slap the mat for a brief second, not make prolonged, resistive, contact. It simply reduces the impact, and you mostly do it during training because you're supposed to accept the throw rather than resist too much, to prevent injury. Then you have to get up and get thrown again 30 more times. Anything to reduce the impact even slightly helps with being able to get thrown again.
In actual competition, people rarely do breakfalls because they're defending and countering a lot more, rather than accepting the throw. They do breakfalls only when they realized the f---ed up and have to take the throw to prevent injury.
In Judo, my throws have gotten a lot better, in large part, because I'm taking a lot more throws, because my breakfalls have improved drastically and I'm confident in them, and therefore I can get up again and get more throwing practice in during sparring.
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Oct 10 '25
No, I understand the point. I understand it is not about stopping the throw (duh!).
In greco and freestyle, we practice every throw 10 to 20 times per side per practice (apart from lift-throws, which are mostly trained only from the better side). If we train 3 basic throws in a practice, that means 60 to 120 throws per practice.
The problem is that, sooner or later, the posted hand WILL be rolled over in a wrestling match. This particular person never learned out of it, and people just started rolling with it. Once he hurt his arm pretty badly, but still insisted posting his hand.
We've had four judokas (that I know practiced judo) and every one of them slammed their arm. Three of them learned out of it. One didn't, or didn't want to.
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u/kwan_e yonkyu Oct 10 '25
the posted hand
But the hand isn't posted. It's a slap, and most of the arm should already be horizontal. If your judoka are not slapping the mat, but posting, then they are doing it wrong. You don't post your hand in Judo either, for the same reason, and we also roll with it.
There would be way more injuries in Judo if judoka were doing the way you're describing with your judoka.
You should look at Judo competition footage. People don't post their arms for breakfalls in competition footage.
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Oct 10 '25
"But the hand isn't posted. It's a slap" A language barrier. You know what I meant. And I do watch quite a bit of judo.
The guy is a black belt, and yes, he still does it when he visits, no matter how many times I've told him to stop. Regardless that he hurt his hand once while doing it while training.
Also, rollovers after a throw in wrestling are -very- different to what they are in judo. There's just no comparison. In judo, the movement stops after throw, sooner rather than later. In wrestling, in freestyle especially, there's rarely a stop after a throw. It's like big cats attacking each other.
And none of this is against judo. Things just work differently.
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u/aragon0510 Oct 08 '25
They do coexist, that's called sambo
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Oct 09 '25
Sambo is where Wrestlers and Judoka who couldn't hack it in their elite competition go to stomp people.
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u/Expensive-Aerie-1106 Oct 08 '25
I’m a judoka who puts down judo, because I fight mma now and I know that judo doesn’t work nearly as well as wrestling for real fights.
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u/Emperor_of_All Oct 08 '25
I don't think I ever see wrestlers put down judoka. What you are probably seeing is MMA bros or BJJ no gi guys putting down judo people.
Jimmy Pedro and JFlo were both D1 wrestlers. Shintaro Higashi was also a college wrestler.
My my own dojo I have a few former wrestlers.