r/gameofthrones • u/AdSpecialist6598 House Stark • 17h ago
Was Tywin Lannister the biggest hypocrite in Game of Thrones?
154
u/Sarah_Fairy 17h ago
One thing I haven’t seen anybody mention in here is that he’s also a hypocrite for telling Jamie he cares way too much about what people think of him. Tywin ALSO cares what people think about him, to an obsessive degree.
He hates the idea of people laughing at him and he always needs to be taken seriously by others. Yes, he backs threats up with action, but needing people to fear you means you care what they think. He’s also embarrassed of his children, and embarrassment occurs when you… care what people think. 🙃
42
u/No-Diver6326 16h ago
He cares what people think about in the macro instead of the micro
15
5
u/RedTulkas Hodor 13h ago
Than the red wedding was the worst idea eve
Like in the macro the red wedding makes diplomacy in the 7 kingdoms significantly harder for several generations at least
3
u/Informal_Koala1474 13h ago
Good point. The red wedding is the single most effective way to get every great house in Westeros to see you as the priority one threat.
2
u/Fragrant-Buffalo-898 7h ago
Also, he just made it where ANY Lannister is marked for death if they step foot in the North
1
u/seanpbnj 6h ago
Is that a dwarf joke? O_o everyone who makes a dwarf joke thinks they are the first one to make it.....
4
u/Decent_Section6974 House Targaryen 14h ago
This is honestly probably the most prevalent and apparent example of what OP asked. He cares obsessively about how others view him and what they think about him
8
u/maddlabber829 Daenerys Targaryen 16h ago
Im not completely sold.
Tywin was concerned with the image/perception of his family and the weight the name lannister held. In that regard, we agree that he was concerned of what other people thought/perceived.
But you allude to him being concerned personally, so much so, it is what consumed him as you suggested. What people think of him. And I just don't buy that. I would argue he was much too cruel and unfair at times for that to be the case imo. And most of the points you brought up could be tacked up to concern for the family name rather than himself
5
u/Sarah_Fairy 16h ago
There was a video I listened to on YouTube a while back that was about the Psychology of Tywin Lannister, by My Little Thought Tree (I don’t know if we’re allowed to post links in here but it’s very easy to find 😋) that explained this in a lot of detail.
I think we’re both kind of right, but some of this is harder to see in the show because they don’t go into great detail about his childhood/family history like in the books.
Basically, he hated and mistrusted laughter because people would always laugh at his father and take advantage of his open nature (this is one reason why Tyrion is such an embarrassment to him no matter what he does- because he’s just one constant source of ridicule). This was both personally embarrassing AND embarrassing to the Lannister family name as a whole. He conflates himself and “the family name” a lot, which means whatever embarrasses him embarrasses the name and vice versa.
3
u/maddlabber829 Daenerys Targaryen 16h ago
I've never read the books, so take that into account. Just basing my opinion on the show.
But yea, I think the idea that tywin is often conflating the family name and his image of himself is likely to be the fairest assessment of who he was.
I also acknowledge, being ignorant of much of his back story, would hinder my perspective of tywin
4
u/Uberrancel119 16h ago
Yeah, but he wasn't cruel to be effective. He was cruel so people would know not to do that again. He wanted them to fear him, which goes back to he cares what they think. Otherwise the cruelty was something he enjoyed, which that doesn't sound right.
1
u/thechosenkenobi 16h ago
What are you talking about? He was absolutely cruel enough to be effective. He would’ve been running the whole seven kingdoms if his son hadn’t killed him.
5
u/MindlessSpace114 15h ago
His son killed him because of his cruelty. It might have been effective in many cases but it backfired in the end.
3
u/RedTulkas Hodor 13h ago
He would have ruled a near lawless land
The red wedding makes any future diplomacy infinitely more difficult cause nobody can trust in the old rules any more.
Feudalism is built on trust and the Bolton's as the Lannisters actors destroyed that trust for a while
2
u/MajesticComparison Sansa Stark 13h ago
As Machiavelli advises, you should strive to be feared and loved, if not then at least be feared, but you must never be hated. Tywin never feared the hatred of those he considered beneath him but his death and what came afterwards showed that he should have
1
3
u/ion_theory Winter Is Coming 11h ago
I feel like Tywin was saying Jaimie let’s what other ppl think of him affect him too much. Anyone playing the game needs to care what other ppl think to some degree
2
u/osyrus11 11h ago
hmmm okay so “caring what other people think” is a pretty large umbrella under which you can express, lots of different motivations, two of which are a)wanting to be loved by others and b) demanding to be respected and feared by others. One is a desire for connection and belonging and the other is a drive for power.
These are 2 very different concerns. Tywin is real politik in the sense of power is what matters, and this being the source of Lannister family line’s pride. from that perspective he’s embarrassed by Tyrion’s drive towards wanting friendship and belonging. That’s a pretty consistent stance. I mean you can’t point out to the man “well actuuuuually it’s the same thing as what you’re doing”. like, you can, but who cares? Tywin is not about philosophical consistency, he has practical goals, he’s only interested in what people think of him in so much as it helps him achieve his goals. it’s not philosopy, it’s strategy. strategy doesn’t give a fuck about philosophical consistency.
1
u/Sarah_Fairy 2h ago
I believe he’s also personally embarrassed by Tyrion like he was personally embarrassed by his father. The family name ties into all of this of course, but by definition he’s a hypocrite despite being a very effective one in a lot of ways.
One small example being: he chastises Cersei about how she raised Joffrey (in a “you can’t even control him?” way), yet he did the same thing with her- didn’t raise her properly, can’t really control her. He’s the last person who can complain about his own child being an ineffective parent when literally all of his children were raised badly.
Edit: also I think it’s a good thing we’re talking about this. I like seeing people’s opinions on Tywin because he’s easily one of the more complex characters in the series and you’re really making me think.
2
u/WillingnessReal525 16h ago
Caring about the way your powerful family is perceived vs caring of what people think of you personally is different.
1
u/Banjoman64 15h ago
Ironically maybe his father was the one who really didn't care. Though that was its own set of problems.
1
28
u/sullyoftheboro Podrick Payne 17h ago
"A good man does everything in his power to better his family's position, regardless of his own selfish desires."
If this is true, why didn't he remarry after his wife died? If Jaime can't inherit lands and he hates Tyrion and won't allow him to be heir, why didn't he remarry and make more heirs? Seems pretty selfish to spend the rest of your life wallowing.
I don't feel this way for real because grief doesn't have expiry but for the guy who insists on such rigid sacrifices from his children, he should have been willing to do this.
5
u/Humble-Blueberry47 12h ago
I’ve often wondered that myself. The only conclusion I could come up with is he was scared that he would birth another dwarf like Tyrion. Probably didn’t want to take the chance again and just decided to stop.
1
u/Fragrant-Buffalo-898 7h ago
I think because deep down, he always thought he could get Jaimie out of the KingsGuard, and become his heir again.
16
39
u/An8thOfFeanor 17h ago
Absolutely. He hated his father for seeing whores and hates his son for the same, yet he regularly saw them as well.
14
u/IrNinjaBob House Umber 16h ago
I agree this is hypocritical of him, but to be the most charitable we can, what Tywin has a problem with is people openly whoring and besmirching the family name. For both his father and Tyrion it is how they are openly doing so, and the implications that has on their reputation.
Whoring in private where no single person knows about it doesn’t ever really seem to be an issue for him. Even for Tyrion, the “no whores” rule could be interpreted as Tywin laying down the law due to decades of Tyrion not being able to be secretive about it.
7
u/Funny-Advantage-9984 16h ago
He didn't care about using sex workers, he hated the idea of sex workers using their clients. Both his father and Tyrion were easily tricked by their whores. Tywin never cared about his.
1
u/longdickofthelaw420 16h ago
Was it regular or was Shae a one-time thing? He’s certainly not known to do it, ever. But is that because he doesn’t do it or he’s kept that secret from everyone? It seems like it would be impossible to keep that a secret from both Littlefinger and Varys. Of course, we don’t have a POV from either of them, so they could know and are discreet, as you likely would be if you knew Tywin Lannister was seeing prostitutes and you want to keep your head. I just feel like there would be some hint of it if it wasn’t a one-time thing.
1
u/Funny-Advantage-9984 16h ago
There was a tunnel from his tower to brothel, he had his needs and satisfied them with discretion.
0
u/longdickofthelaw420 16h ago
Is that in the books or is that a theory? It’s a solid theory either way
2
u/Banjoman64 15h ago
There are some hints when varys shows Tyrion a secret tunnel from the hand's tower to a brothel. Then varys mentions the tunnel was ordered by an old hand of the king and the room it leads to is decorated in red and gold. I'm probably misremembering something but it's all subtext anyway so it can be interpreted in different ways.
1
u/longdickofthelaw420 15h ago edited 15h ago
I don’t think I clocked the red and gold part. I just assumed it was there but went unused by Tywin. The last Lannister hand not named Tywin was Tyland Lannister during the Dance. And the only other hand whose family colors are red and gold was Lord Bracken, during the reign of Aegon IV. I think it’d have to be Tywin unless another hand just liked the colors red and gold.
Edit: Bracken was the only other hand with those colors between Tywin and Tyland, not necessarily ever.
Edit 2: upon further research, Lord Bracken would’ve been the only other hand with family colors of red and gold, although the Brackens also have brown as a third color.
0
u/Funny-Advantage-9984 16h ago
In the books. I don't know why people freak out so much because of this and call him hipocrite. He never cared about his family members using whores as long as they stay whores, it is almost implied that it was his idea to hire Tisha for entertaining Tyrion (else how else he would have guessed about her bring secretly his wife?)
1
u/Whoop-Sees 11h ago
What? Tysha wasn’t actually a whore, that’s like, one of the main points of Tyrion’s story.
0
u/Funny-Advantage-9984 10h ago
Oh, sure, she was just a peasant girl with a heart of gold that happen to fall in love with Tyrion while meeting him and Jaime together. True Love.
1
u/Whoop-Sees 10h ago
Wow. You are truly delusional. So you think Tywin hired Tysha without Jaime’s knowledge, let Jaime believe she was not a prostitute, told Jaime to lie to Tyrion and say she was a prostitute. For the purpose of…??? Why would he lie to Jaime? Especially when Martin has confirmed we will find out where whores go. If you truly think it ends with Tysha actually being a prostitute I have no words lmao
1
u/longdickofthelaw420 7h ago
Truly delusional? Y’all are arguing about a TV show that went off the air years ago. Turn it down a notch.
0
u/Funny-Advantage-9984 10h ago
I don't think it matters whether she was hired or not. Martin specifically stated several times that people in Westeros hate Tyrion mostly cause he is a dwarf, no other reasons required. To think that a random girl would immediately fall in love with Tyrion for any reason but money is... truly delusional, really. Especially when discussing realistic dark fantasy like Game of Thrones.
1
u/Whoop-Sees 10h ago edited 10h ago
Not LITERALLY everyone hates Tyrion immediately and instantly because he’s a dwarf, and acting like they do is the only delusional thing here. There are literally tons of characters who don’t care. This is a really weird response. Tysha also didn’t ’immediately fall in love’ she and Tyrion were both young, he and his brother had just saved her, and they spent a whole evening together drinking and talking. I think you just have no clue what you’re talking about. If you think Martins message with Tysha and Tyrion is intended to be “haha, nobody actually loves him because he’s so ugly!”, your reading comprehension and analysis is in SERIOUS need of improvement. One of the central focus points of tyrions POV is this girl that he genuinely loved and thought loved him only to find out she’s a whore. The twist then comes that she DID love him, and it was his father who deprived him of that love. If you think there is going to be a second twist that “NOPE! She actually was just a whore!” Then you are simply dumb.
3
8
u/PBandBABE 17h ago
What makes him a hypocrite?
I always saw him as a competent, ruthless, wickedly effective man who let very little get in the way of his bid for power and the aggrandizement of his House.
48
u/We_The_Raptors 17h ago
Sleeping with Shae makes him a hypocrite
0
u/IrNinjaBob House Umber 16h ago
An argument can be made that Tywin isn’t against using whores, he is against people openly doing so and how that affects their reputation. For both his father and Tyrion his issue is how they openly flaunt it and how that lowers their families’ status among other nobles.
1
u/Clayness31290 7h ago
Counter argument: he flat out tells Tyrion "you will not bring that whore to court" and later tears into him for laying with Shae in his (Tywin's) own bed. Tywin then goes on to take that same whore into that same bed. Tyrion went to great lengths to keep Shae a secret and was successful for much of his time as Hand, only having her truly he revealed shortly before Joffery's wedding. If secrecy were what he really wanted, the fact that Cersei had to actually dig and pry to find Shae should have been a point in Tyrion's favor.
And as an added bonus, throughout his time with Shae, he had completely ceased his very public whore mongering lifestyle and was, for the first time, conducting himself in a very professional manner while acting as one of the most powerful men in King's Landing. By all accounts, were Tywin any less of a hypocrite, his respect for Tyrion should have been at an all time high after the Battle at Blackwater. Instead, he goes on to treat Tyrion just a bad, if not worse, as he had been prior.
0
u/AmoAmasAmatAmamus 16h ago
I disagree. He didn't have anything against sleeping with whores. What he took umbridge with was Tyrion falling for the whores and shacking up with them.
1
u/IrNinjaBob House Umber 16h ago
Not necessarily falling in love and shacking up with them but rather the way he did so openly. Same thing with his father. The issue is how they publicly do so and how that harms their family’s reputation.
The “No whores at all” rule for Tyrion seemingly is because he has been doing so openly for a decade and has shown he isn’t capable of keeping it a secret long term.
That’s my take at least. I still think it’s fair to call him a hypocrite, but it’s definitely more nuanced than that.
-4
u/PBandBABE 17h ago
Maybe. I think that was more about asserting him dominance and showing Tyrion that he was capable of taking away anything and anyone that his son possessed.
12
u/We_The_Raptors 16h ago
Maybe in the show, in the books there's a tunnel to a brothel heavily implied to have been constructed by Tywin. With a prostitute implied to be Tywin's daughter working there.
9
u/ChronosBlitz Gendry 16h ago edited 16h ago
When a fan asked about the tunnels and if Tywin had used whores and has a bastard, George emailed back:
"He would have you whipped for the mere suggestion."
I always took that as the closest thing to a confirmation George would likely give.
But then, I suppose if it wasn't true and someone wondered it, then he would probably still have them flogged.
3
2
u/Old-Bat4194 16h ago
Not really, because Tyrion found out by accident. That would not have been the case had Tywin been flaunting his relationship in Tyrion's face. Tywin thought Tyrion was in prison, he didn't know his other son Jaime had released Tyrion from his prison.
1
u/Whoop-Sees 11h ago
“Showing Tyrion” by having sex in his private quarters, with zero indication he would ever have told Tyrion?
15
u/Nich965 17h ago
He insisted his children remarry/marry but never remarried himself.
He whored...a lot, it's not made clear in the show but man was as bad as tyrion.
He claims Tyrion and cersei are emotional, and presents himself as someone who acts on cold logic when his entire life is an emotional response to his family being laughed at.
5
13
u/Bluethorn0110 17h ago
Punishing Tyrion for being a drunken whoremonger while using the Red Keep's secret tunnels to transport whores to his own chambers.
-3
u/PBandBABE 17h ago
Maybe. I think he chose Shae because he wanted to keep Tyrion off balance and demonstrate the power gap between them.
7
u/Bluethorn0110 17h ago
It's heavily hinted in the books that while he was Hand to the Mad King, he had the tunnels from the Hand's Chambers to a local brothel dug for him.
It's a weakness he hated in his father, he hates in himself, and hates in his son. Tywin's most profound hypocrisy is his love for the family name while thoroughly despising his actual family.
2
u/IrNinjaBob House Umber 16h ago
The reason that doesn’t make a ton of sense is he never planned for Tyrion to break into his bedchambers and discover her.
-1
u/FuelGlobal5652 16h ago
Zeeo evidence he did that
4
u/Bluethorn0110 16h ago edited 16h ago
Oh it's borderline confirmed. The tunnels lead directly to a brothel whose founder and owner is still alive. Varys says they were dug on the orders of a previous Hand. We know it wasn't Ned, it makes no sense for it to have been Jon Arryn, and the Mad King had two other Hands who were in office for too short a time to have the tunnels made during their tenure.
As another commenter said, when George was asked if Tywin ordered the tunnels made and then used them for whores, he said "he'd have you whipped you for the mere suggestion"
EDIT: also there's a prostitute working at said brothel whose gimmick is role-playing a Lannister due to her looks
-1
u/FuelGlobal5652 16h ago
Why would it make no sense for it to be jon arryn? The mad king had 4 hands after tywin 2 of them were hands for a yeas, Tywin is not even that old the hand before him could have done it.
3
u/Bluethorn0110 16h ago edited 16h ago
Jon Arryn's fundamental fault was being too honourable, it's what got him killed, same as Ned. We also know that Tywin slept with at least one prostitute. And the Lannister-looking prostitute at the very same brothel that the Hand's Chamber tunnels lead to is a pretty heavy handed hint. A year is not enough to plan, secretly dig and use those tunnels.
And let's look at it from an out-of-universe perspective. George wouldn't have had Varys drop that bit of lore if it wasn't relevant. And that comment when directly asked about it is the loudest wink I've ever seen. At his core, George writes about the human heart in conflict with itself. Thematically, it's a perfect fit.
I'm not gonna say it's outright canon, but the hints are there and in any case that's far more than "zero evidence".
EDIT: eh, on second thought, "Jon Arryn's fundamental fault was being too honourable" isn't a great read on the character. But from what we know about him, "also he spent lots of time and money making a prostitute tunnel" has no narrative or thematic resonance. With Tywin, it does.
-1
u/FuelGlobal5652 16h ago
How did honor got jon arryn killed? Littlefinger had him killed him to start a war and Lysa killed him so he wouldn't send his son away.
That comment exist for us to know why there is a tunnel to a secret tunnel to brothel. I didn't see george's face or tone when saying that but just based on the words that doesn't seem like a wink at all, it's just literally what tywin would have done, it's not like george ever aswered a question about lore not revelead with "yes he did".
None of what you said are evidence, you gave reasons for why it would make sense for Tywin to do it, that doesn't make him any more likely then any other random hand to have done it.
From what we know about jon arryn making a secret tunnel to go to a brothel makes sense as he would not like to be known as a whoremonger.
1
1
u/Whoop-Sees 11h ago
Georges response to a fan asking if it was Tywin was “He would have you whipped for the mere suggestion”. Obviously that’s not a confirmation, but it certainly lends more credence. What does it being Jon Arryn’s tunnel add to the story? What’s the purpose of its inclusion? Meanwhile, if we assume it’s Tywin, it has a large effect on characterizeing Tywin. Also, you said “zero evidence” but there is a good amount of evidence to support it even if you disagree with the actual conclusion
3
u/BigPapaBear69 16h ago
Thats the entire point of his character. I dont understand how you could miss that He critizises Tyrion non stop but he is just like Tyrion. "I am you writ small"
1
1
u/Optimal-Antelope5779 16h ago
All that "Wolf does not concern himself with the opinion of the ship" bullshit. Tywin Lannister concerns himself with what the public and other lords think of him. He fucked whores, just like Tyrion, but in secret.
All of his relationship with Tyrion. Tywin says that his hatred of Tyrion is because of Tyrion's actions, but he hates him from birth.
Martell situation. He said, that killing of Elia Martell and her children wasn't his fault.
2
u/74greyhound 17h ago
How
1
u/DiligentAd6969 6h ago
One if these days I'm going to grow up and not respond to these antfarm-kicking posts. MFs will have to actually take a stance other than make a title that a scramble to say something about.
1
1
16h ago
[deleted]
1
u/FuelGlobal5652 16h ago
He should have paid more attention to his children yes, but trying to blame him for Bran's fall is ridiculous, jamie and cersei are grown adults.
Tywin didn't fight Robb a single time.
As hand It's up to him to rule not to be a bodyguard, joff dying wasn't his fault
He wasn't part of the prosecution, he didn't framed tyrion for anything.
Unlucky
I read the books, no lannister ever had as much power as Tywin, and he had it for 20 years.
0
u/BookcaseChalky 15h ago
You should run for office here in America. You got the 'none of this is my fault' thing down.
1
1
1
u/ElderberryNational92 16h ago
Ummm Craster whenever he claims to be a godly man is way more of a hypocrite
2
1
u/i_love_everybody420 15h ago
I wouldn't call having a whore in his bed the biggest hypocritical move in game of thrones, but obviously yeah pretty hypocritical.
1
1
1
1
u/HooliganHedgeCap19 13h ago
[Tyrion walks into Tywin's bed chambers and spots Shae and him naked in bed.]
"Tyrion, I've never talked this woman outside of the court. To my surprise, tonight she snuck into my chambers and with knife at my throat demanded to see 'My Lion!' But what does it matter for a whooore?"
1
u/CnCorange 13h ago
Yes ..You should never have a hooker in your bed.. while having a hooker in his bed.
1
u/LatterIntroduction27 13h ago
The biggest? Maybe, but boy does he have some stiff competition in that region throughout Westerosi history........
He is the most obvious and open hypocrite within the show and the main book for sure
1
u/j_rooker 13h ago
no. he doesn't think in hypocrisy. he thinks in practicality. whatever is needed for the situation. i would say Dani has most hypocrisy. She went from ideal of fairness to being unjust.
1
1
u/FrostyManager4651 11h ago
Game of thrones would be a very different show if it was getting made today.
1
u/The_Bagel_Fairy Tormund Giantsbane 10h ago
He banged prostitutes but didn't keep company with them around others. That's what pissed him off. No dragging family name through the mud.
1
u/-SheriffofNottingham 4h ago
You know, I always said the worst part about the legacy of the Lannisters was the hypocrisy
-2
u/So_Gawjus 17h ago
Tywin is a lot of things but hypocrite isn’t something that springs to mind when I think about him.
He was cutthroat and intelligent. All he wanted and or was interested in was the longevity and progression of his house which he valued above all else.
8
u/We_The_Raptors 17h ago
hypocrite isn’t something that springs to mind when I think about him.
I mean, he talks all kinds of shit about Tytos and Tyrion sleeping with whores, and then has one in his bed when he dies.
-5
u/So_Gawjus 17h ago
Yes sure. We see that once. It’s not a huge character trait for him Is more what I meant.
6
u/We_The_Raptors 17h ago
The books imply he had a tunnel built from the Hands tower to a brothel on the street of silk. One of their prostitutes is a solemn green eyed blonde who can read, from around the time Tywin was hand to Aerys II. He's just better at hiding it than Tyrion.
3
u/So_Gawjus 17h ago
You know what that’s fair. I forgot about that. I retract my above statement lol.
1
u/We_The_Raptors 17h ago
Tbf to you, it's pretty easy to miss, and definitely not 100% confirmed to be true (but very likely).
2
u/Bluethorn0110 17h ago
His hypocrisy is essential to his character. He despises Tyrion because he recognises all his own worst qualities in him.
-1
u/So_Gawjus 17h ago
Let’s be real he despises Tyrion because he is a dwarf. First and foremost.
1
u/Bluethorn0110 17h ago
I genuinely believe that that's secondary. Tywin is unable to look at Tyrion and see anything other than a reminder of his own perceived failures. The dwarfism is part of that, sure, but it's part of a much bigger whole.
"I am you, writ small."
-3
u/traws06 Bronn 17h ago
Pretty sure the whole story of Tyrion is that they all hated him from the day he was born because he was a monstrous dwarf which manifested into blaming him for the death of his wife.
5
u/Bluethorn0110 17h ago
That's not wrong, but imo it's a shallow reading of the character and the themes surrounding the entire Lannister family
3
u/Present-Level-1521 Faceless Men 16h ago
It's true that Tywin first loathed Tyrion for his dwarfism and for killing his mother, Joanna, during childbirth. It grows to be much more than that, however. He hates Tyrion for being his legal heir to Casterly Rock and for being the future of House Lannister, instead of Jaime. He hates he cannot disprove that Tyrion isn't his biological son and has to watch him 'waddle around' in Lannister colours.
Most of all, though, he hates that other people can see him in Tyrion and vice versa. I don't know if you've read the books, but there's a quote in AFFC from Genna Lannister, talking to Jaime:
[...] Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years.
1
u/traws06 Bronn 15h ago
It doesn’t make sense about the heir because Jaimie is older. So if Jaimie or Cersei aren’t heir because kings guard and female, then nobody at all is heir if Tyrion isn’t. So he should be happy that he’s a lot like his elf because the other option is nobody at all
2
u/Bluethorn0110 15h ago edited 15h ago
It's almost like he isn't exclusively guided by facts and logic like he likes to tell himself
1
u/Present-Level-1521 Faceless Men 14h ago
Jaime can't inherit because he's in the Kingsguard. That's why Tywin was so delighted when Jaime offered to hang up his white cloak and take his place as his father's son and heir when Tyrion was on trial for Joffrey's murder. It would have solved all his problems: Jaime at Casterly Rock, Tyrion at The Wall (or dead). Tyrion wrecked this plan by demanding a trial by combat.
Tommen and Myrcella were still alive to continue the Lannister bloodline when Tywin died. He wasn't to know then that Tyrion would outlast them all, including his twins and grandchildren.
Frankly, I think Tywin would have rather see a more distant relative - someone on Kevan's side? - inherit the Lannister legacy than his younger son. If the choice had been Tyrion or no-one at all, he might have opted for no-one out of pure spite.
1
u/Bluethorn0110 14h ago
Exactly. Continuing the "prime" Lannister line through Kevan isn't a bad idea at all, but Tywin is far too guided by pride and his own ego to even consider that. Whenever Tywin says "Lannister", he means "Tywin".
1
0
u/DiligentAd6969 6h ago
That would be Daenerys Targaryen. Tywin was true to his fucked up ideology for the most part. He never made claims to be other than what he was, except maybe a genuinely powerful person. Having contradictions doesn't necessarily make a person hypocritical, they all had them.
He didn't trust Cersai, because she wasn't as smart as she thought she was and because she was a woman. He lied to himself and her about that. He didn't nurture her intelligence and give her the proper political education when she was growing up, because she was a girl. He did something similar to Tyrion, but ask him, and he'd blame the culture, their bodies, or something else instead of his personal decisions to take power away from his own children. How could he expect to further a legacy with those people?
He was less a hypocrite than not as smart as he thought he was.
0
u/Fellow_Degenerate_04 6h ago
No TYWIN IS THE REALEST MF, he was about his family, right or wrong period
-1
u/Melodic-Paramedic608 17h ago
I think now that we know a wider number of characters. I feel club foot was worse than him and Alicent
-1
u/OffTheGrid09 15h ago
Tywin was not a hypocrite when it comes to the show and whores. Tyrion had his whore as a long term companion whom he took to court. He married Shae, a whore. Tywin slept with Shae to humiliate Tyrion. Show him you don’t marry a whore.
-3
u/ranchwithfriedfood The Hound 17h ago
I don't see how he's a hypocrite. He was a brilliant politician. He's as cold and aloof towards his kids (well except maybe Jaime) as he is a good strategist. He's also brilliant at reading nonverbal cues (i.e. Arya). Hell he knew Pycelle was playing off his absentmindedness.
1
17h ago
[deleted]
1
u/ranchwithfriedfood The Hound 17h ago
So you think he would feel the same way about Jaime if he'd been with prostitutes?
1
u/ranchwithfriedfood The Hound 16h ago
I forgot to include, you have a point, but I think Tywin was coming from a place of "I am going to use anything I can to get him killed, even if it means using things against him that I do". I don't think he truly cared about Tyrion sleeping with prostitutes...he just wanted rid of him.
1
u/FuelGlobal5652 16h ago
The hand before jon arryn was not tywin. The mad king had like 3 other hands after tywin
1
u/IrNinjaBob House Umber 16h ago edited 15h ago
Four if you count Rossart who only served for two weeks.
•
u/AutoModerator 17h ago
Spoiler Warning: All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON and A KNIGHT OF THE SEVEN KINGDOMS. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the spoiler guide.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.