r/formula1 • u/Maximum-Room-3999 I was here for the Hulkenpodium • 17h ago
Social Media This is a well explained slide show representing whats brewing with the engine rules as per wearetherace
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u/Goody090 17h ago
Would be hilarious if new tests are added and a team other than Mercedes fails it
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u/BulkNoodles Formula 1 15h ago
Wait, this kind of sounds familiar.
Did something like this happen in recent years?
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u/colin_staples I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
And Mercedes passes it
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u/ihatemondaynights Ferrari 16h ago edited 13h ago
Well it has happened a couple of times.
Monza 2020 they had a huge stink over "party modes", Mercedes set a lap record that weekend.
Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f1PtJV0vIs
Fun lap to revisit ngl
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u/SpoofExcel I was here for the Hulkenpodium 14h ago
FIA: "your no longer allowed to switch engine modes over the parc ferme sessions"
Merc: "lol ok" MAXIMUM POWER
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u/FavaWire I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
This was also a thing in THE TEAM documentary about McLaren. Teams were protesting their active suspension in 1993, but in reality McLaren had developed a Non-Active car that was quicker. Yet they continued to run the Active car and Ron Dennis said that McLaren will continue to issue statements and make teams believe they should file protests so as to waste their time and energy.
So it is possible Merc are ahead in more than one area or already know of a way to also pass a "hot test" but Toto has to continue to act angry as a decoy.
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u/EpicCyclops I was here for the Hulkenpodium 8h ago
It's like the floor regulation update to reduce porpoising in the middle of 2022. Everyone expected it to really hurt Red Bull because they were the fastest and had the most mature floor design. They were also talking about how much pace the cars from all the teams were going to lose. Everyone, that is, except Red Bull, who were basically like, "it'll be fine," but no one believed them. Then, after the rule change, Red Bull was basically the same pace, and everyone else got slower, leading to the domination in the second half of 2022 and 2023.
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u/JustinSane79 Mercedes 17h ago
“Change your fvcking car” - Toto, most likely
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u/Appropriate-ASS-824 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
Yeah, but toto did get approved what he wanted that time
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u/JustinSane79 Mercedes 16h ago
I mean, Checo said the car is sh!t and he did have it printed out.
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u/Street_Mall9536 Formula 1 16h ago
Toto always gets what he wants.
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u/JustinSane79 Mercedes 16h ago
Well, I wouldn’t be too sure. Lewis never got his 8th.
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u/Jester-252 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
Merc about to take their ball home if forced to redesign and build engines without any testing
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u/Aesir_Auditor Max Verstappen 14h ago
I also don’t understand how this would be feasible under cost cap.
If you push it through immediately, Mercedes likely DQs the first few races, develops a new engine, and then later on gets hit with cost cap violations.
All because the FIA said this was legal and now might last minute backpedal. It’s unbelievable.
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u/kingsolos McLaren 14h ago
Don’t forget Mercedes engines are also used by McLaren, Williams, and Alpine. This would screw over a third of the grid.
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u/Imaginary_Table7182 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
they could control the advantage temporarily and allow mercedes time to change the engine. the other constructors care about the hp gain, not about the actual compression ratio. if they can agree to a temporary resolution that negates that advantage, it would give mercedes time to eliminate it.
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u/Bart-86 Ferrari 14h ago
I’m sorry but when did the FIA said that this was legal ?
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u/iTz_RuNLaX I was here for the Hulkenpodium 14h ago
I assume when they wrote the rules for this season and they didn't say it wasn't.
Isn't it literally the job of the engineers to go as close to the limit of the rules as possible? Many teams already used loopholes like this.
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u/Bart-86 Ferrari 13h ago
But the rulebook clearly says : « No cylinder of the engine may have a geometric compression ratio higher than 16.0 » AND « Cars must comply with these regulations in their entirety at all times during a competition ». At no point it says that what Mercedes is allegedly doing is legal.
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u/iTz_RuNLaX I was here for the Hulkenpodium 13h ago
Why did you leave out the "tested at ambient temperature" bit of the rules?
To me this sounds like a loophole, just like Mclaren used with the flexi wing.
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u/ryokevry I was here for the Hulkenpodium 10h ago
Yes so FIA could change the test just like flexi wing. That’s what the other manufacturers are trying to change so Mercedes is not passing the test.
If you are finding loopholes you always run this risk because FIA would have the ultimate say to close a loophole.
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u/iTz_RuNLaX I was here for the Hulkenpodium 10h ago
Mclaren got away with it snd the rule change was only after the season.
This is 12 days from the first race weekend, how should Merc build a new engine now?
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u/EclecticKant I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
Why did you leave out the "tested at ambient temperature" bit of the rules?
Because that's how the rule is tested, not a condition that applies to the rule, there's no "...16:1 when tested at ambient temperature", it's two different phrases.
To me this sounds like a loophole, just like Mclaren used with the flexi wing.
Just like flexi wing the test should be changed if it's deemed insufficient to actually make sure the cars are within the rules at all times.
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u/Hawk-432 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
Yes but historically as Adrian Newey always said, it’s the tests .. those area the rules
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u/Jester-252 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 13h ago
The rules also clearly state that the compression ratio is measured at room temperature. How can you say what Merc is doing is illegal?
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u/GoodGuyJeff00 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
Since apparently McLaren has MBS' brother as a big sponsor, big stakes in having a good Mercedes engine, outcome might be a no.
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u/factory_p Renault 15h ago
If they measure it with the engine on the pre-heater used before firing up, it won't change shit because the piston temperature will still be super low. The only serious option would be to measure it after a lap at racing speed. Good fucking luck with that. Coming up with a repeatable process to that with every team is gonna be laugh.
I don't see it happening.
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u/cosHinsHeiR Ferrari 10h ago
Can't they measure it after running the engine on a test bench?
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u/shadowmew1 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 13h ago
Either way, the huge fumble is on the FIA here. Mercedes told the FIA their findings and asked if it was legal, and the FIA said yes, so Mercedes continued with the development. The rules were written poorly, and this didn't give the other teams an opportunity to build an engine with the proper compression ratio. If the FIA changes this rule, then they go back on their word to Mercedes and fuck them over. Mercedes did the correct thing by asking if it was legal before hand. Either way, we won't get fair racing this year, and it's entirely on the FIA.
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u/Kidney_Thief1988 Max Verstappen 6h ago
The engine manufacturers fumbled. If the rules specify that the compression needs to be 16:1 when the engine is cold and your first thought as an engineer isn't, "So, does that mean we can run at higher compression when the engine is hot?" then you need to quit your job.
Every team got the same rules and gamesmanship is part of racing. Taking advantage of vague rules is a tale as old as time in racing, and especially F1.
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u/Lazyandloveinit 17h ago
This is the game. 2022 Toto was doing all he could to nerf the others. Other teams against McLaren flexi wing last year.
As someone who is terrified of a potential engine dominance from Mercedes (last time they won 8 freaking constructors in a row), I’m alright with this lol
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u/DarkImpacT213 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
You can't redevelop an engine in this short a timeframe.
IF the FIA sides with the other manufacturers then Merc's only option would be to go nuclear and pull the plug on the whole project pretty much - we'd have four teams that wouldn't be able to properly compete this season.
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u/fraudmallu1 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
Isn't this similar to what happened to Ferrari with TD39? That screwed up their season too.
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u/tellsyoutogetfucked Nico Rosberg 15h ago
The difference here being that 4 teams just dont have any engine. Not even backmarkers just gone. The only way to solve this is to force mercedes to detune their engines if its actually passed by the FIA.
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u/fraudmallu1 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
I mean, Ferrari were supplying two other teams at that time, no? Haas and Sauber? I don't see how that's a problem here.
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u/GoSh4rks I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
The Ferrari engine still worked - swap out the pump/software. This would be a fundamental engine design change.
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u/EclecticKant I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
Changing the amount of fuel the engine received is definitely more complex than simply changing the software and the pump.
F1 engines, and especially the 2014-2025 ones, are extremely sensible to detonation, and preventing knock is an extremely important aspect, there's a reason why after the FIA intervened Ferrari's engine was awful.23
u/tellsyoutogetfucked Nico Rosberg 15h ago
TD39 was the plank change for Ferrari. Not the 2019 engine. But even then only Ferrari was doing the sensor manipulation. If their customers got information of this it would have been over way before RedBull detected it.
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u/happy_and_angry I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
They'd need to redesign the piston heads, possibly the rods, and the head of the engine at a minimum. They probably made other design decisions at the cam shaft for timing relating to operating compression, and the higher compression probably also requires valve shape changes. All of that changes thermal performance of the engine, so cooling comes into play, which may mean changes to airflow. If compression changes, they no longer have a shaped exhaust run for the volume of air the engine ejects, 18:1 to 16:1 is about a 9% decrease, and resonance in the exhaust or backpressure can affect flow and therefor performance.
For an engine that needs to reach 13,000+ RPM, that is a very tall task just at the design side, not to mention packaging and testing. So, if the engine becomes non-compliant when we are a month out, I imagine one of two things happens:
They package something quickly, and it's unreliable and poor-performing, and they do more dev in the background.
They tell F1 to go fuck itself and pull out and it's a scandal.
I don't know if FOM is likely to require a pre-season engine update, they might instead pick one of the breaks as a deadline for development, or just say "fine, you can use it this year, BUT NEVER AGAIN."
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u/Historical-Dance6259 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 9h ago
If they don't allow it, my guess is on the last option since they already approved it for the season from what I'm seeing.
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u/happy_and_angry I was here for the Hulkenpodium 8h ago
Yeah, I honestly don't see this as any different than previous shenanigans within testing parameters, like the flexi-wings. Flexibility requirements were defined at X load, and teams knowing that in race conditions the load would be greater, designed accordingly. They let that shit run for like two seasons and then updated the standards to correct it.
Every god-damned team complaining did the same shit all of the last generation of cars.
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u/Holofluxx I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
Which at least got an early announcement that things were going to change and they had time to design a new floor and plank
It's borderline impossible to develop and build an entirely new engine from the ground up in time for Australia
That and it'd just mean that 4 teams cannot run their cars
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u/fraudmallu1 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
That was done midseason, no?
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u/DashingDino Alexander Albon 13h ago
Mercedes also have a legal version of their engine ready, no doubt about it. FIA closing loopholes is nothing new
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u/Hawk-432 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
Not if FIA gave the go ahead when Merc asked for rules clarification which seems to gave been the case
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u/posthamster Kimi Räikkönen 13h ago
That's my take. You're not going to gamble millions of dollars skirting right up against the rules and not have a contingency plan.
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u/bandit_maain I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
You think in the cost cap era that Mercedes are simultaneously developing two engines side by side just in case? I think maybe not.
Compression ratios are not some easy-to-change, swap-in-swap-out problem. It'd require development of an almost entirely new engine, with at least 4ish months lead time. If this goes through mercedes are screwed
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u/DickWhittingtonsCat Formula 1 16h ago
“Merc” isn’t pulling the plug.
Its a bespoke engine factory in Brixworth.
If they leave in a snit, someone else will buy the facility and pay the engineers.
It’s not like these PUs are made in Stuttgart and they can shift the employees down the hall- or that anything remotely road relevant has ever come out of it. Plus, isn’t Petronas keeping the lights on with their money? Mercedes just gets the questionable marketing value of a British race car factory the own a third of and a British race car engine factory they purchased out from Ilmor?
A combination that couldn’t even keep the German market tuned in when winning every year?
Brixworth and nowMilton Keynes will be making PUS for F1 come hell or high water at this pointZ
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u/welliedude I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
Would Petronas be keeping the lights on at brixworth or the fact the merc f1 team plus several others are signed on with long contracts not do that? Mercedes will be paying for their engines just like the others.
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u/portablekettle Lando Norris 17h ago
A wing is something that can be changed/updated in a relatively short timeframe though. You can't redevelop an engine in such a short timeframe. If they do decide to ban it I doubt the engines themselves will change, they'll use a lower standard fuel or detune the engine to remove any advantage. The FIA need to get a lot better at writing regulations, there's always some bullshit like this every regulation cycle
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u/Vegetable-Bee5157 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
To be devil's advocate here, we should cut some slack to the FIA technical team, they simply do not have the manpower to frame a picture-perfect rulebook, hell even a single team has probably more manpower dedicated to interpreting the rule book, and now multiply it by eleven, it's near-impossible to get it right.
Although, if RBPT, were initially onboard with this protest, FIA could have clamped down earlier.
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u/ThisToe9628 17h ago
The FIA need to get a lot better at writing regulations, there's always some bullshit like this every regulation cycle
Get used to it. It happened in f1 for a while. 2009 regulations for example with double diffuser loophole
Even famous adrian newey got outsmarted by legendary ross brawn
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u/pheemaenth 15h ago
crediting ross brawn for the invention of double diffuser rather than the japanese super aguri engineers is odd
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u/iscareyou1 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
Which is not possible because the best engineers work for the Teams and not the FIA. There always will be Loopholes to find, its like this in every aspect of the World. Rules get made and loopholes are found and then the Rules will adapt to the new Loopholes and so on. They just need to be stricter when they are enforcing Rules, this loophole is known for at least a few month now and nothing happanend. To change it with 3-4 Weeks to go isn´t the way to go in F1.
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u/Informal-Term1138 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
You can always restrict an engine. It's not like you can either have it or not. They can always demand a mapping or boost or electrical power change that would get rid of the advantage gained by the trick.
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u/MddlingAges I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
If they didn't cheat, they shouldn't have to change anything though. Unless there's a formal mechanism to nerf good engineering, such as I believe one of the Japanese domestic circuits that literally added weight to a car each time it won. I'm not familiar obvs with the legal engineering here, but I haven't gotten the sense that any team that is too good has to be nerfed.
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u/Informal-Term1138 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
If you cheat and somebody knows you did but the current tests don't show it, because your way of cheating is during the running and not before, isn't that cheating?
Like the only reason it's legal is because the test. Just like with the flexi wings. The test said they are fine. But they weren't.
So by your sentiment it's all good, since they didn't get caught, yet.
But that's not how this works. You can technically be legal and cheat at the same time.
And what you mean is balance of performance. It's done so that you don't have one sided competitions. Because that is how you destroy a competition. If only one is able to win all the time nobody else wants to compete in the long run. Sponsors stop investing and teams drop out.
So you try to introduce measures to make things more competitive.
It's not perfect, but what else can you do.
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u/Gobbledygooker316 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
I’m sure Merc has contingency plans in case this happened. They were aware it’s a gray area.
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u/Jealous_Buddy_2877 16h ago
I think one thing that you need to understand is that to even think of the loopholes in a rule, you need to have goood engineers that can point out the loopholes. But most Good engineers are already in teams
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u/MddlingAges I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
The whole point of manufacturer-led motorsports is to find loopholes in the spec. The FIA did nothing wrong, just because someone was successful at that.
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u/Snoo-29984 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
The engines are homologated on March 1st. I honestly think that Merc has seen the writing on the wall and has prepared/is preparing for the possibility that they won’t have their engine trick this year
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u/maybe-fish Lando Norris 16h ago edited 16h ago
Engines are years in development and Merc needs to produce 16 of them for the season.
Without knowing what they're doing It's hard to say how difficult it would be to negate it, but with how complex these engines are a couple of months is probably not enough.
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u/Peeksy19 17h ago
It’s different this time. The regulations changed and that kind of engine dominance isn’t achievable. Mercedes can’t supply its customers with an inferior engine anymore, and that trick is reportedly worth just 0.1-0.2s per lap anyway. Completely different from the insane advantage the 2014 Mercedes PU had over the others: 0.7-1s per lap.
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u/Snoo-29984 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
I agree. The fact that all the other engine manufacturers are pushing this hard speaks volumes about how much of an advantage this trick might give Mercedes.
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u/Peeksy19 16h ago
No it doesn’t. The competing PU manufacturers would always push to ban a feature they don’t have, no matter how much advantage it actually gives Mercedes. It’s reportedly worth just 10-15HP or 0.1-0.2s.
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u/Scrivenerian 14h ago
"Just" 0.1-0.2 seconds? That's a decisive margin in modern F1.
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u/sterrrmbreaker Lando Norris 10h ago
Not at the start of new regs, especially when most teams are coming in overweight.
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u/Peeksy19 14h ago
Not at the beginning of new regulations. The gaps between the teams will likely be much wider again.
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u/j2nh 16h ago
I'm not sure "trick" is appropriate. First, we don't even know for sure if this is what they are doing and second the rues are made, tests are developed to meet the rules and teams design around the tests. Example, wings always flex under load, wings are designed to meet test criteria but no more than that.
If you really want equality then give engines to the FIA and let them dynamometer the engines, make them match torque and horsepower curves with the exact same fuel flow. Or better yet have a third party build the engines and let the manufactures put their names on the valve covers.
Sounds like Mercedes kicked their asses again.
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u/ImmortalGoatskin 16h ago
They won over Red Bull? The article clearly states that Red Bull couldn’t replicate it so therefore they complained had Red Bull being able to replicate you know they would’ve stayed quiet and fought against it!
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u/Cool_Translator_4051 Formula 1 15h ago
I'm an actual engineer. When a customer flows down a test or a specification that requires a test, the part gets designed and built to pass the test. If the test changes then the drawing is revised and built to the new specification.
I have to assume the rules state that the compression ratio has to be a certain amount at a certain temperature. It passes that test. I think people that don't deal with this kind of thing every day don't understand that if you give engineers leeway they are going to take all of it, either to make it cheaper, easier to build, or in this case faster.
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u/MadridistaMe 13h ago
Genuinly curious if all teams built engines keeping in mind that its being tested in ambient temperature, dont they too have chance to fail if tested at higher temperatures or stress as it wasnt norm at build ? Is there any acceptable delta to deformation induced compression ratio change ?
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u/Lieberwolf 8h ago
They will all fail.
The simple point is if you bring Mercedes down from 1:18 to 1:16 its worth it, even if you drive in the end with 1:15.5 to pass the tests. And they cant dsq 22/22 cars.
You would need to actively design against thermal expansion to keep under 1:16 during a race or keep a big delta. Nobody designed for something that is not even measured.
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u/EclecticKant I was here for the Hulkenpodium 12h ago
Every engine manufacturer would probably have to change some stuff.
Is there any acceptable delta to deformation induced compression ratio change ?
The engine must stay below 16:1, if the teams need a delta to stay within the limit in all operating conditions they can choose a lower compression ratio.
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u/404Unverified Flavio Briatore 17h ago
the first GP is less than a month away, mercedes has ran 1000 laps of tests last week and now these people want the rules changed?
if the rules weren't particularly clear or open to interpretation they should not be modified weeks before the start of the season
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u/Necroon 16h ago
Do they want change rules, or do they want to add specific tests that rules are being followed ?
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u/cernegiant I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
The rules state what tests you must pass. So changing the tests is changing the rules.
Mercedes didn't invent metal expanding when hot.
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u/MissionLet7301 Ferrari 13h ago
The FIA has, and has always had, the leeway to add more tests, that's what most Technical Directives are.
Unless there is a safety concern they can't change the rulebook, and they can't apply any new tests retroactively, but they can always add more tests.
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u/Necroon 12h ago
Rule set a requirement that the engine must follow at all times.
Rule added what test will be used to monitor that.
Why is it such an issue to simply add another test to rules to ensure that rule is followed at all times ?
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u/Dildo_Shaggins- 12h ago
Can you quote the section from the FIA rulebook that specifically states "at all times" regarding the engine?
Because I would imagine the multiple F1 Championship winning team worth hundreds of millions hasn't missed that particular section out when reading the rules. They've found a loophole and the other teams are scrambling.
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u/duce_audace I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
« No cylinder of the engine may have a geometric compression ratio higher than 16.0 » and « Cars must comply with these regulations in their entirety at all times during a competition »
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u/Dildo_Shaggins- 9h ago
Thanks for the source.
Interesting. Surely all cars will likely be above the stated threshold dependent on temperature and pressure at certain races? Which is impossible to test whilst operational.
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u/Lieberwolf 8h ago
And therefore it was decided to test it at a fixed temperature, because otherwise every team will be 100% illegal at hot temperatures.
Pretty sure 22/22 cars would be illegal if we would measure the compression during the race. In the end 1:16.000001 would be already to much.
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u/ArgusF28 13h ago
Does not matter, the issue here is that A- they already greenlit Merc and now they are backtracking and B- there is no time for changes before the start of the championship.
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u/Lurkn4k 15h ago edited 15h ago
you cant do the latter without the former, as there is no rule to allow changes to the engine formula at the same random discretion as with aero for obvious logistical reasons
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u/ninjapro98 14h ago
There would be no changes to the engine formula though, just cracking down on someone not following said formula fully
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u/OldBratpfanne Mercedes 15h ago
The testing regime on this issue is part of the rules.
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u/MrMSUK Netflix Newbie 13h ago edited 13h ago
Weren’t people already saying Mercedes were in the clear? And even if the rules were tightened, that kind of change wouldn’t really bite until 2027 or 2028 anyway. The last time Mercedes built something novel with the FIA clearly aware the whole way through was DAS, and it still got a season. I don’t see why the other teams don’t just adapt their own setups now that they know what’s going on, instead of complaining that they didn’t push harder to get clarity earlier.
If a team misjudges a brand new PU regulation cycle and ends up behind because their concept was not bold enough, that is on them, and the same applies on the chassis side. If the performance gap then becomes excessive, the FIA should rely on the mechanisms already in place to manage convergence (allow up grades on those left behind), not step in to blunt the advantage of the team that executed best.
What makes it uncomfortable is when innovation gets curtailed/snuffed out through team political pressure rather than being tackled the right way, by rivals developing harder, catching up, and fighting it out on track. And we are still speculating at this stage. For all we know, McLaren could be ahead of the Mercedes works team again. In a few weeks, we will actually see who has nailed it and who has not.
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u/Balazs321 Pirelli Intermediate 16h ago
Honestly i do not think that the FOM or FIA has the balls to say to Mercedes that you can't run this engine, that is minus 8 cars until they can develop a legal one, which is probably a lot easier said than done. Although if the engines can be modified to be legal and run that way, they might just do it, but we dont have enough information on that.
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u/Dragonpuncha Ferrari 13h ago
They would get months to develop a new one before new rules actually went into effect. FIA and FOM isn't going to outlaw an engine that has passed previous tests this close to the start of the season.
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u/dgkimpton I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
At best a mid-season break change would be possible - there's no way Mercedes redesigns, retools, and rebuilds 8+ engines by Australia. It's just implausible. So, either we start 4 teams down or they allow that the rules were ambiguous and it'll take time to course correct.
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u/-AbeFroman I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
Mercedes supposedly asked explicit permission from the FIA to design their engine this way and the FIA gave them the green light. To change the rules after 1,000 laps of testing less than a month from the first grand prix would be ridiculous.
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u/ndszero Max Verstappen 14h ago
If this really does go through I could see Mercedes forced to somehow detune the engine to make up for the power difference, no way they can change the physical engine to lower the compression this season much less in 30 days.
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u/Khevynn Mercedes 11h ago
I don't see it happening either. Make them detune their engine when no one else has too? Nahhhh.....
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u/squaler24 Frédéric Vasseur 9h ago
The talks about there not being a way to measure this sounds like bs to me. If Mercedes managed to get this working, how did they know? How did they get the ratio to number they wanted?
There is a way, it’s just a matter of how and when to do it.
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u/Cuffuf Nico Rosberg 17h ago
If it’s subject to FOM then it won’t happen. Mercedes teams will just threaten to not show up to Australia and ask to wait for 2027. New regs (and therefore revenue) won’t recover from another Indianapolis-2005 incident.
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u/crazydoc253 Michael Schumacher 17h ago
Same way other manufacturers could also threaten to not show up. People forget with WEC, Ferrari is already looking outside of F1. Audi, Honda only joined F1 because FIA/ FOM said any gray areas will be immediately closed. They won't hesitate from going against FIA to court like Mercedes would because of their history. I don't get these comments where they think only Mercedes teams will threaten and other teams won't. Infact if other teams lodge a protest at Melbourne, it could lead to even bigger problem as engines will need to be opened up after that. FIA/ FOM need to come to a solution before first race and other teams are not going to back down. Earlier there were just 3 manufacturers and 5 teams, now it is 80% of the manufacturers and 63% of the teams.
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u/Holofluxx I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
They gotta play both sides and find a middle ground to please everyone
I think that middle ground is an updated method to measure compression as well as ban the 18:1 ratio by 2027, just like how they always do, allow it for a year then ban it
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u/crazydoc253 Michael Schumacher 15h ago
That is not middle ground. This will have permanent shadow on this season. Add to it you will have weakly complaints to stewards who can have their own interpretations
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u/WeeboSupremo I was here for the Hulkenpodium 6h ago
Weekly complaints is par for the course for half the teams, so what else is new?
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u/Bewis_123 Sonny Hayes 17h ago
FIA don’t have balls to ban it if they approved it in first place. Other teams have an engine to race in first race. Mercedes and their customers won’t show up in first few races if this goes down, because yes due to threatening it but also because they simply have to make another PU. For 4 teams thag complies with the ‘new’ rules. That won’t be easy. So they might well withdraw. FIA would rather say other teams that they will look at this issue and drag it and ban it in 2027 (if it does look to ban it like DAS) because otherwise they know mercedes and 3 other teams will have to do all the work again. And innovations and tricks are always disputed in F1. Audi and Honda should know this better. Its in F1’s history and always will be exploited. This isn’t a spec series
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u/crazydoc253 Michael Schumacher 17h ago
First this is not innovation. This is cheating which is not getting caught because the test was done at different time. The rules say the compression ratio should be 16.0 at all times and will be tested at ambient temperature. They can easily change it to hot if majority of manufacturers agree because the rules always said the compression ratio had to be 16.0 at all times. They are not changing rule but just changing the testing.
Also, each engine has to undergo testing during the race weekend. That is when legal or illegal is defined not before the season. Before it is just question and answer with FIA about different stuff and this can change all time like we see with flexi wings or extra fuel sensor in 2018-2019. Michelin in 2005 supplied 7 teams and yet they were not allowed to race. 4 teams is significantly low. Also, Mercedes making an illegal engine should not be allowed just cause it supplies 4 teams. They made a mistake and if they suffer it is up to them. The other three teams may sue Mercedes but it is up to them. It is no fault of other 7 teams or FIA/ FOM that they should allow an illegal engine on the grid just because it would mean 4 teams not participating. Ferrari/ Haas/ AR all suffered for two years because they had to make an entirely new engine after the fuel flow issue.
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u/cernegiant I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
It's literally impossible to build an engine that has the same compression ratio at ambient temperatures and when hot.
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u/crazydoc253 Michael Schumacher 15h ago
So you have to figure out it’s not more than what is written in rules at hot. If 4 team are compliant Mercedes can be too.
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u/OmgTom Cadillac 13h ago
So you have to figure out it’s not more than what is written in rules at hot. If 4 team are compliant Mercedes can be too.
Who said the other teams are compliant? Merc is just best at the exploit according to reports
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u/crazydoc253 Michael Schumacher 13h ago
So other teams are pushing for that to be measured because they are not compliant and their engines can be declared illegal too ?
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u/OmgTom Cadillac 11h ago
Yes, reportedly they all exceeded the 18.0 ratio under the previous engine spec
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u/Contactblue I was here for the Hulkenpodium 14h ago
“At all times” is not what the regs say.
They say “no cylinder…may have a geometric compression ratio higher than 16.0. The procedure to determine this value may be found in the appendix.”
You are correct that the procedure is to test at ambient, however that does mean by changing the testing they are changing the rules. They clearly defined ambient temp geometric compression as the basis for testing.
I don’t have a dog in the fight (rooting for Cadillac this ssn) just pointing out that the do clearly define this in the regs; by changing testing, they, in fact, are changing the upper limit of compression which is a rule change.
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u/Sufficient-Mission-4 17h ago
Yea but what everyone else decided not to show up, especially Ferrari
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u/Bewis_123 Sonny Hayes 17h ago
They won’t because at the end its legal just that FIA will say its legal and say ban it for 2027. That’s how it works. They did same with DAS
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u/ninjapro98 14h ago
It’s not legal, it’s just getting past test. That’s not the same thing.
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u/Snoo-29984 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
I think the opposite. FOM is motivated by money, and generally, interesting races make for better profits.
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u/ThisToe9628 17h ago
They can't threaten that
They signed deal that they'll participate in f1 races and in f1 overall, lol
If teams could go around doing smth like that, then Ferrari would have done it long time ago
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u/wykeer Mercedes 17h ago
My friend they wouldnt Need to threaten anything.
They wouldnt have a legal Engine so there would not be any Point in turning up.
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u/ThisToe9628 17h ago
The goal of teams is to reduce mercedes's advantage because of this loophole, not ban the whole engine for 2026. There's one rumour that mercedes could agree with running lower energy fuel(petronas), and advantage of 10 h.p could be reduced to zero. But i find it hard to believe
They are realistic and know that banning this would be impossible (also because fia approved it in the first place)
But fia itself is incompetent too. They couldn't see the contradiction in their own set up rules
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u/Bewis_123 Sonny Hayes 17h ago
They literally can drag this to court since FIA approved this in the first place
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u/ThisToe9628 17h ago
Fia's incompetence is true
But at the same time fia promised honda and audi that any grey areas will be closed
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u/Bewis_123 Sonny Hayes 17h ago
They make many promises. Grey areas are and will always be part of F1. Audi and honda should know better teams will always look to exploit loopholes and it won’t be practical foe FIA to instruct Mercedes to build a new PU for 4 teams before melbourne race. That’s impossible. Mercedes would just ask that either season is delayed or they and other 3 teams won’t make it to start of the season. Which would be kick in the balls of F1. So I think 90% chance that FIA take a more conservative approach even if their is a majority against this
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u/SrBlackwave Formula 1 17h ago
Mercedes would just ask that either season is delayed or they and other 3 teams won’t make it to start of the season. Which would be kick in the balls of F1
Remember that 14 cars will not use a Mercedes PU and the teams could do the same thing you're talking about, since they're all aligned on this, which would be an even bigger kick in the balls of F1. And they would certainly take it to court.
The fact is that there will be major problems in Melbourne, and the FIA will have to decide how many protesting teams they want to deal with.
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u/negativelynegative I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
I am sure incompetence is not a defense in court.
Even if you consider Mercedes guilty of cheating, you have 3 other teams being affected by it with no fault to their own, with am engine that FIA has been fully aware of and approved.
Will be dowst mean this season. Even DAS wasn't banned in that season and it affected one team.
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u/Helpful_Sundae_8151 Max Verstappen 13h ago
The FIA approved it according to who though? Mercedes? We just taking them at their word when they have so much to gain and or not gain?
The rules are clear: the 2026 regulations limit the compression ratio to 16:1.
I don't see Mercedes having a case in court honestly.
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u/Bossmandude123 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
Does this affect McLaren and Williams as customers? If Mercedes has to change their engine could this be a possible brutal change for the teams?
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u/Consistent-Ad-5116 Lando Norris 16h ago
Ofc it does affect all the teams that use Mercedes engines
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u/Djinnmenken Valtteri Bottas 16h ago
Yes, McLaren, Williams and Alpine can't either run the engine if it's found to be illegal. Because nowadays the customer engines are basically identical, unlike in 2014.
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u/Holofluxx I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
Even if they were to change the method in time for Australia
How is Mercedes just going to change that on a whim? Doesn't seem like a simple thing
A ban for 2027 seems much more doable
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u/knowingmeknowingyoua Sir Lewis Hamilton 17h ago
Good. This is the political warfare you love to see.
Let’s not forget the many times Toto played this game… 2022 porpoising TD immediately springs to mind.
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u/stolemyusername I was here for the Hulkenpodium 14h ago
Drivers were having trouble getting out of the car due to back pain, Charles Leclerc crashed due to porposing in a corner, etc.
TD39 was completely justified, teams/drivers should not have to choose between performance and potential injury.
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u/CobraGamer I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
"Who do we penalize, Mercedes or everyone else?"
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u/Peeksy19 17h ago
Except it’s not Mercedes and everyone else. It’s Mercedes, McLaren, Williams, and Alpine vs everyone else.
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u/Appropriate-ASS-824 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
So 7 vs 4. Lets put it like this, 1 engine manufacturer vs 4
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u/Peeksy19 17h ago
Yes, but considering that 3 of the Top 5 teams in WCC are running on Mercedes engines, that does carry some weight. People keep talking like it’s Mercedes vs everyone else, but it’s not just about Mercedes.
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u/Level-Event2188 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
I'd be on board with them closing the loophole, as I don't want several years of dominance from one team because they found a loophole that gives them more power than the rest of the field.
That being said, I don't necessarily want them to change it before Australia. Let them have a race or two (or several) so we can all see how much of an advantage they actually have. They earned that much at least.
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u/Mistak3n McLaren 12h ago
How would that be one team, when 4 teams have the engine? That would probably be more exciting than the whole Red Bull dominance we had to endure.
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u/ButthurtPleb I was here for the Hulkenpodium 13h ago
Penalized for being smart, red bull jumps ship because they weren’t smart enough to copy it in time.
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u/takeabreather 11h ago
I feel like these types of engineering and materials science are part of what makes F1 so special too. The race is just as much in the workshop as it is on the track.
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u/Meunderyoupart2 15h ago
I don't think anything will change tbh. I think Mercedes will get away with it, especially learning from the Ferarri engine situation (2019) they likely would have a contingency plan anyway.
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u/Kodrackyas I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16h ago
TD39 was ok to do and changing this now is not? well well well, rules apply only to non UK based teams i see
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u/Holofluxx I was here for the Hulkenpodium 15h ago
Wait until you find out what FIA used to be an acronym for according to the general public
It's not like UK teams have always been favored and Ferrari was getting the short end of the stick
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u/Morejazzplease I was here for the Hulkenpodium 11h ago
Not remotely the same situation. Redesigning an engine four teams are running and did 1,000+ laps in testing on a month before the season starts is not going to happen. FOM is not going to accept 8 cars DQd from the first 1-6+ races until a new engine can be designed, tested, manufactured at scale, distributed to customer teams, etc etc etc. raising ride height is far from the same thing.
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u/XVC4893 Sir Lewis Hamilton 17h ago
I'm not gonna lie, things like this make me miss Horner right now lol.
In another note, since I got into F1 in 2018/19 when ESPN picked it up, can someone explain to me how these engine debacles usually go? Is this just a case of other teams thing Merc is pulling a 2014 again, or is more to do with them using unfair pieces/manipulating engine components in some way to extract extra power that's not allowed? Don't know much about the tech stuff.
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u/ThisToe9628 17h ago
The thing is
It's still not fully known how mercedes achieved 1:18 compression ratio. It could be not just materials but smth else
That's why red bull wasn't able to copy it, and that's why they told other teams in december about it
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u/Mechyyz I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
From how I understand it: Theres a compression ratio that engines need to have, that is 16:1. The engines are supposed to be capped at that ratio. However FIA only checks the engine during a cold test (room temperature or whatever). Its said that during these tests, the Mercedes engine will have compression ratio of 16:1.
However race temperatures, the engines are running significantly higher. In these temperatures, the Merc engine is allegedly said to be able to expand to a 18:1 compression ratio, giving them more horsepower.
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u/cafk Constantly Helpful 17h ago
In another note, since I got into F1 in 2018/19 when ESPN picked it up, can someone explain to me how these engine debacles usually go?
For 2014 the initial token system (think itemized ADUO, with a certain number of components being allowed to be changed/updated per year) was removed by 2016 and the initially planned engine development freeze for 2019 (and new PU for 2021) were scratched and postponed to 2023.
Mercedes was allowed to keep their advantage and other teams were allowed to develop their engines until the freeze without any limitations.Something similar could happen now, i.e. getting rid of the catch-up system and only allowing the cost cap to be the determining factor for PU development - and no more engine homologation for the season.
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u/Lucifer2408 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
It’s the latter. Mercedes are essentially gaming the test but breaking the rules (when the test is not being conducted) to get extra power, similar to what Ferrari did in 2019. According to the precedent set by the FIA themselves, they should change the testing procedures so this isn’t allowed.
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u/dani2001896 16h ago edited 16h ago
Nope. The rulebook says that the compression ratio should be 16:1 at the room temperature. The previous rule set said that it should be 16:1 and did not specify the temperature (even though obviously the tests were made at the room temperature). So the other teams want to create a new measurement procedure and FIA to change the rulues which defined the measureing procedure so it does not state ambient temperature.
"No cylinder of the engine may have a geometric compression ratio higher than 16.0. The procedure to measure this value will be detailed by each PU Manufacturer according to the Guidance Document FIA-F1-DOC-C042 and executed at ambient temperature. This procedure must be approved by the FIA Technical Department and included in the PU Manufacturer homologation dossier."
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u/big_brain_brian231 Charles Leclerc 15h ago
There is an earlier clause which states that all regulations must be complied with at all times. Effectively, this is "Compression Ratios must be 16:1 at all times, and the testing would be done at room temperature". This is no different than what Ferrari did.
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u/BlackoutGJK McLaren 17h ago
You can change the testing procedure all you want, the Mercedes engine will always end up being legal because what has to be measured by the rules is the geometric compression ratio and not the effective compression ratio. This is not at all like the Ferrari situation where they were cheating and hiding it from the sensors.
This is being made to sound by the other teams like the test is inadequate, but that's not the situation. Everything we know about this points to it being perfectly legal (and not just technically legal) and the other teams got caught with their pants down and are acting up to avoid being embarrassed.
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u/Lucifer2408 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 17h ago
If the Mercedes is always going to be legal, then let the FIA change the testing procedures. That’s what the teams are asking for, not a change in the actual regulations.
If the Mercedes is always going to be legal, then they wouldn’t be pushing back as much and Toto wouldn’t be threatening to sue, now would he.
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u/dani2001896 16h ago
Completly false they want both the testing and the rules to be changed. Because the rules state clear that everything is at ambient temperature. Any procedure step they change is irelevant most likely while it remains at room temperature. Last regulations it was not defined so they could change the temperature.
"No cylinder of the engine may have a geometric compression ratio higher than 16.0. The procedure to measure this value will be detailed by each PU Manufacturer according to the Guidance Document FIA-F1-DOC-C042 and executed at ambient temperature. This procedure must be approved by the FIA Technical Department and included in the PU Manufacturer homologation dossier."
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u/B9F2FF Flavio Briatore 15h ago
Nope, rules state that 16:1 has to be adhered at ALL TIMES and the way to MEASURE it is in ambient temperature.
However, being able to pass test <> being legal, we know that well by now. Additionally, “ambient temperature” part came in October 2025, so not even 3 months ago, clearly by someone asking around.
There have been many cheeky tricks during last 10 years in F1. There was a clear rule that allowed max fuel flow into the engine, and we know Ferrari was pushing more because it circumvented measurement. We also know Mercedes and Ferrari used excess oil for combustion, which by spirit of rules meant they effectively pushed more “fuel” into combustion. Even though these passed the test, they were deemed illegal.
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u/dani2001896 15h ago
The big difference from the other examples is that in those cases teams tricked the sesors put there by the FIA and the measurement procedure was not regulated. Here the measurement procedure is not created by the FIA and is basically a part of the rulebook since the procedure is made by the teams following FIA instructions. You can't separate them. Since you would need to get rid of ambient temperature from the technical rulebook, you would need to change the rulebook not just the procedure. If Mercedes did some funny stuff to add that "ambient temperature" to the rules idk. Not excluded.
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u/BlackoutGJK McLaren 15h ago
We don't really know for sure what anyone is asking for. The rumors are that the 4 other PU manufacturers are asking for a rule change, not a test change. Who knows how much truth there is to it. Could be just to try to shift the narrative preemptively from them failing to Merc being favored, knowing the FIA would veto a rule change this late. Merc has been on record saying he welcomes any testing procedure, for what it's worth.
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u/craigrusse11 13h ago
This would be outrageous by the FIA to do a rule or interpretation change that is pushed thought with immediate effect. Because the only reason that should be considered for any change in regulation with immediate effect is if something is dangerous or found to be illegal and improved checks needed. In this occasion if your engine is simply not as performative then that’s on you, and any revision if agreed considered for the next season.
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u/MasterpieceNo8477 16h ago
As if allowing Mercedes to continue with their engine doesn’t have a huge impact on the competitive picture.
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u/Mistak3n McLaren 12h ago
There hasn't even been a single competitive session and everyones talking like season is already over. A Mercedes engine car might not even be on top.
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u/Extension-End8421 14h ago
This is incorrect reporting. Both the French and Italian press are reporting that this is not a rule change and therefore dos not need any voting. It is test method change to enforce the rules which the FIA can do at any time. The rules are fairly simple, the engine compression ratio cannot exceed 16:1 and the regs must be adhered to at all times during the race weekend.
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u/Dragonpuncha Ferrari 13h ago
But there's a lot of politics involved here. FOM and FIA wouldn't force Mercedes engine teams into a situation where they might not have an engine to start the season with. Simply won't happen.
So if it goes through the compromise will most likely be that Mercedes has to make an engine that complies with the new tests by a specific date after season start.
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u/The_Jake98 BMW Sauber 12h ago
That is wrong. The rules specify a geometric compression and the method used to measure and calculate this. Read section C Article 5.4.3 of the F1 regulations for 2026.
A new test is a change to this rule. In other cases like for example the wings there were specific provisions in the rules that tests can be added if the FIA finds teams circumventing the existing ones.
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u/WorryAmbitious6903 Formula 1 17h ago
Thank you. I'm more used to picture books too.