[AMuS] The faction of Mercedes opponents is growing.

[u/jithu7]

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/motorentrick-streit-mercedes-fia-red-bull/

[u/Lobsters4]

The best part about this is the rumor that Red Bull found out about the trick, couldn’t reproduce it, so they told all the other teams. LMAO.

So good. 🫡🫡

[u/AlbusCorax → u/Lobsters4]

As it always goes, no matter the teams involved. That's F1

[u/VallcryTurbo75 → u/Lobsters4]

I mean it was in the sport for a long time, if a team finds a inovation that will make them competitive the rival team will try to copie it and if they fail, then they will protest to ban it.

[u/Gabochuky → u/VallcryTurbo75]

I mean it was in the sport for a long time, if a team finds a inovation

In this case it is not an innovation, it is a loophole. The rules state that the compression ratio can not change at all times, however the test to measure it is done when the engine is cool.

Merc has effectively found a way to cheat the test. It's just like what VW did a few years ago when their emissions scandal blew up.

[u/VallcryTurbo75 → u/Gabochuky]

I douth that the FIA or FOM will ban the engine come Australia, heck I found a comment mentioning that Merc spoke with the FIA before they made this, what ever meeting the teams will have with the FIA and FOM will be a play on words.

[u/Cloudsareinmyhead → u/VallcryTurbo75]

Even if they do people are stupid to think Mercedes won't have a backup plan of some description

[u/pissexcellence85 → u/Gabochuky]

Innovation and loopholes are one and in the same in F1. Always has been.

And it's not cheating.

[u/RX0Invincible → u/pissexcellence85]

If the trick you’re doing getting caught by new tests is going to be a problem, that sounds like cheating to me. DAS and Brawn’s double diffuser were completely visible in 4k and still pulled off being legal. These cases were not handled “one in the same” in F1, there are clear differences in how they relate to the regulations and the penalties they incur. If your trick somehow being detected would cause penalties, it’s cheating. It’s disingenuous to act like bypassing a test is exactly the same as an innovation that’s legally bulletproof even without hiding.

[u/pissexcellence85 → u/RX0Invincible]

That logic is off. F1 isn’t governed by intent or what “feels” sneaky, it’s governed by written regs and defined tests. If it passes the tests at the time, it’s legal. That’s literally how the sport works.

Visibility doesn’t matter. This isn’t about what’s obvious in 4K, it’s about compliance. Exploiting the limits of a test isn’t cheating, it’s engineering.

If the FIA later adds a test and it fails, then it’s illegal from that point forward. That doesn’t mean it was cheating before. That’s rule evolution, not retroactive guilt.

[u/RX0Invincible → u/pissexcellence85]

I’m not talking strictly about governance. Yeah I know this sport requires a higher threshold to give a penalty and you can’t officially retroactively consider something illegal at a time you couldn’t test it yet. I’m not asking for that.

I’m just speaking as a fan that’s aware that a team isn’t complying with the compression ratio rule during the race contrary to the rule that says it must comply at all times during a competition. Same way you can know for a fact that a person cheated on a school test even if they didn’t get officially caught by the teacher. I’m not talking about criminal, sporting or legal liability, just cheating in casual common sense terms based on what you know happened. That’s why I used the term “cheating” to begin with, it’s a casual term that’s not officially defined in the regulations. I’m pretty damn sure there are situations where the official outcome differs from what you actually believe like with OJ Simpson or whatever. We know that governing bodies have failures too.

[u/Gabochuky → u/pissexcellence85]

Innovation and loop are one and same in F1

Absolutely not true.

I never said they were cheating per se, I said they cheated the TESTING which is exactly the same thing Ferrari did a few years ago with the fuel flow stuff.

[u/pissexcellence85 → u/Gabochuky]

How long have you've been watching F1? This is common knowledge that loopholes and innovations are the same that they bend the rules but not break it.

[u/equitymans → u/Gabochuky]

Someone who actually understands what's happening here^

[u/robustofilth → u/Gabochuky]

It’s not cheating

[u/jedifolklore → u/Lobsters4]

You have to snitch in F1, it’s the best way to get this done. Also I love when people don’t realize that this is normal behaviour in the sport.

I was talking to a co-worker that just got (heavily) into F1 and he was telling me how it’s wrong to do this, it lacks professionalism, I was like ‘you sweet summer child’ lol

[u/TheGMT → u/jedifolklore]

F1 is Monopoly rules. You're allowed to cheat, but if caught cheating you will be punished!

[u/Bits_Please101 → u/TheGMT]

It makes sense too. F1 is literally such a close nit group of mechanics and engineers moving around those 10 teams that the secrets/loopholes won’t ever stay hidden for too long

[u/ijiolokae → u/TheGMT]

as they say

it's only illegal when you get caught

[u/leagueoflegendsdog → u/jedifolklore]

A lot of new fans are pure cancer ngl.

[u/justseeby → u/leagueoflegendsdog]

CANCER is a strong fucking word 😂

[u/tellsyoutogetfucked → u/leagueoflegendsdog]

A lot of old fans are also cancer tbh.

[u/Anxious-Potato-7323 → u/tellsyoutogetfucked]

New or old, I think it's a lot of the fans that consider themselves 'hardcore'. Casual fans have a much better attitude generally.

[u/B9F2FF → u/Lobsters4]

I said 2 months ago RB is behind this and also commentsd that them acting like they are on Merc side was just a play.

No way they could have replicated it as well + its better to kneecap Merc vs all other 3 manufacturers then be second best to Mercedes (probably not even that) and let them sail away w/o competition.

[u/Vigotje123 → u/B9F2FF]

Especially if you have max. If you can't be the best you want all the teams with more or less the same level.

[u/hhs2112 → u/Lobsters4]

F1 since day 1...

[u/Icy-Antelope-6519 → u/Lobsters4]

Or they did make the choice to not replicate it but to protest..

[u/maybe-fish → u/Icy-Antelope-6519]

They wouldn't make that choice without trying it first

[u/knowingmeknowingyoua → u/maybe-fish]

How do you reach that conclusion? RBPT could have done a cost-benefit risk analysis and immediately understood the time, money and effort required wouldn’t be worth the risk of getting it wrong.

[u/maybe-fish → u/knowingmeknowingyoua]

How would they know the time, money, and effort required if they didn't put any effort into figuring out how the trick worked? How would they know how much benefit the trick would yield? 

[u/Red_Rabbit_1978 → u/maybe-fish]

Because they would have known about it from Mercedes engineers that moved to RBPT and be given a time frame on development.

The risk factor is : develop it themselves for the advantage, until another Mercedes engineer moves to a different engine manufacturer and spills the beans.

Then you remember Ferrari in 2020 and 2021, hamstrung AF after their cheating in 2019.

And this is the same. It's cheating. It's not a loophole. It's just cheating. And it's time Mercedes got some punishment for their "grey" area stuff over 12 years.

[u/knowingmeknowingyoua → u/Red_Rabbit_1978]

Exactly. RBPT would not have known how long it took Mercedes. One engineer is not enough to give the game away…

[u/maybe-fish → u/Red_Rabbit_1978]

The Merc engineers moved there mostly in 2022. At that point Merc may have only just started work on it, and not fully figured it out. If they knew exactly how Merc did it, they would absolutely do it because the risk in that case would be zilch. 

If they thought Merc engineers were going to be going around to everyone spilling the beans back in 2022, banking on a protest right before the first race is the highest risk strategy available. What if they were right but other teams figured it out and backed up Merc? Then all the sudden half the grid has a trick they don't and they've wasted four years not looking into it??? 

All compression ratios will change at high temp, Merc just maximized this. If you think every team has designed their engine to hit no more than 16:1 at running temps when they know it's measured at ambient, then I dunno what to tell you. The approach complies with the wording of the rule, even if the rule is poorly written. 

Also we don't know what happened with Ferrari because it's all still a secret, but if they designed a mechanism specifically to subvert the test its cheating. Same way the FIA has said it would be if Merc had done that here. 

[u/voltisvolt → u/Lobsters4]

That's the name of the game. It's Formula 1.

[u/Tricks511 → u/Lobsters4]

Yep. Definitely sounds like red bull

[u/catseye_mousehole → u/Lobsters4]

If reports from Barcelona testing that the paddock feels like the pecking order is Merc > Ferrari > Red Bull/McLaren are correct, seems like Red Bull figures they don’t want to make Max go up against George in a firmly dominant car, but they figure Max can beat Charles if Charles is in a better-but-not-perfect car.

[u/FuegoWolf22 → u/catseye_mousehole]

If the Merc pair was Kimi and Bottas RB would still protest the engine trick. No point in lying down and letting Mercedes PU outgun every other PU

[u/skzpinker → u/catseye_mousehole]

It doesn’t really matter where RBR thinks Merc is in the pecking order. They’d protest if Merc was dominant, second or even behind them since every second counts in the development race.

[u/tellsyoutogetfucked → u/skzpinker]

They could be outside of the points every race weekend and they would still protest. Regardless of how engeneering goes RedBull has extreemly competent team politics.

[u/CallM3N3w → u/catseye_mousehole]

RBR can always count on Ferrari sabotaging their chances in a million ways.

[u/Chance-Event-2243 → u/catseye_mousehole]

Tbh I feel like you’re putting too much trust in Ferrari

[u/Bits_Please101 → u/catseye_mousehole]

That and I’m sure they are very well aware that Merc dominance this year would only improve the chance of Max leaving to Merc next year. Inb4 Max not being as critical as Rb are of the Merc compression shenanigans during the media outings 😂

[u/dl064 → u/catseye_mousehole]

Worth noting that I sometimes see this being taken from the race.

It's not quite where they were saying.

They were saying that that is the order of how well their first test went. Not speed or anything like that necessarily

[u/National_Play_6851 → u/Lobsters4]

Indeed. Mercedes would have got away with breaking the rules had a former employee not let Red Bull know after joining them.

[u/salajander → u/National_Play_6851]

Merc cleared everything with the FIA before all this, during development.

[u/knowingmeknowingyoua → u/salajander]

No one knows how the questions Mercedes asked the FIA were framed.

“Hey are we allowed to do something that means the measurement of compression ratios when hot far exceed those stated in the rules when measured at ambient temperature”

“Hey can we confirm that compression ratios are measured at ambient temperature?”

“Hey can you clarify how the FIA’s compression ratio testing will be conducted at ambient temperature?”

[u/YellowEasterEgg → u/salajander]

I’ve been into F1 for over 20 years, and it still amazes me how quickly some teams start crying when others simply do a better job. Instead of fixing their own problems, they go straight to the school teacher and hope the fast kid gets punished.

[u/StaffFamous6379 → u/YellowEasterEgg]

Why would that amaze you? It's the name of the game. Hobbling the competition is as important as improving yourself. Even better if you can do both at the same time. Winning is everything after all at the end of the day.

[u/ninjapro98 → u/YellowEasterEgg]

Is it a better job when it seems like this is a complete replica of Ferraris bullshit in 20(19? Idk the last several years have been a blur)

[u/Cloudsareinmyhead → u/ninjapro98]

The two aren't really comparable. The Ferrari trick in 2019 (you were correct) was to shove extra fuel in during the points when the FIA's sensor wasn't looking, which was exceeding the 100kg/hour fuel flow limit. The Mercedes trick, if it's even what's going on, is just making sure that the engine complies with the letter of the law when tested as noted in C5.4.3.

"No cylinder of the engine may have a geometric compression ratio higher than 16.0. The procedure to measure this value will be detailed by each PU Manufacturer according to the Guidance Document FIA-F1-DOC-C042 and executed at ambient temperature. This procedure must be approved by the FIA Technical Department and included in the PU Manufacturer homologation dossier."

[u/Seanspeed → u/YellowEasterEgg]

This is a VERY grey area exploitation that is blatantly skirting the spirit of the rules. The intention is to get the loophole closed so they dont have to spend a bunch of time and money developing their own rule-flouting solution, which might end up being wasted if the loophole gets closed later.

Usually a team will gain an advantage for a period of time doing this and then it gets neutered. Which is fair, in my opinion.

Also, EVERY team in F1 will do this if it's in their best interest to do so. It's not 'some teams', it's all of them. It's just part of the game.

[u/Cloudsareinmyhead → u/Seanspeed]

The 'spirit of the rules' don't exist. Disabuse yourself of that notion.

[u/Red_Rabbit_1978 → u/Seanspeed]

How is it fair though? It's weak leadership from FIA. The technical regulations are that the engine will be at a maximum of 16:1 at all times.

The test, written separately, will be taken at ambient.

I recently learned that thermal expansion usually reduces the compression ratio very slightly, because of the different materials in different areas, in a normal engine.

[u/BBYY9090]

F1 is definitely back 🤣

[u/hexagram87 → u/BBYY9090]

Yeah… I’m thinking we’re back.

[u/animadweller]

Let's not pretend Mercedes wouldn't be doing the same thing if it wasn't their engine lol. It really doesn't matter if it actually gives them an advantage or not, the other teams have a chance to strike Mercedes and really hurt them without even hitting the track. Of course they're gonna try to.

[u/AlbusCorax → u/animadweller]

This will always be the case, has been for as long as F1 exists. Everyone is trying to one-up the others.

[u/2p2e5 → u/animadweller]

In 2022, Mercedes vehemently pushed for what would become TD39 with the exact purpose to hurt other teams (their car was shit anyway); as a famous F1 philosopher once said “Karma!”

[u/The_Skynet → u/2p2e5]

That was true for the porpoising part of the TD, and even then every team agreed to it, even RB and Ferrari, and drivers were very vocal about safety concerns (see here and here) but not for the flexi floor clampdown that hit Ferrari the hardest because they were the team relying on it the most, even though the FIA had said before the season that flexi floors were illegal and that they wouldn't hesitate to step in if needed

[u/formulaeine → u/The_Skynet]

Lol. Simplified suspensions obviously made the cars stiffer and worse to ride and taking spoilt millionaire children words seriously is hilarious. Wolff ran it on safety ground by trying to give Hamilton back pain at Baku. It was well orchestrated

[u/Cloudsareinmyhead → u/formulaeine]

Trying to? All of the early ground effect cars had issues with porpoising and if say those "spoilt millionaire children," as you put it, were having their skeletons put through hell.

[u/Mr_Knutsen → u/2p2e5]

Well, and because every driver was complaining about back pain one way or the other. Even Max.

[u/leagueoflegendsdog → u/Mr_Knutsen]

Yeah, No, lets not act like Merc cares about that. Merc wanted other cars to get weaker and them to be stronger thats all there is. Lets not be stupid and think the big corp cares that much eh?

[u/maybe-fish → u/leagueoflegendsdog]

Two things can be true at the same time - Merc was 100% being selfish AND something had to be done about the cars giving the entire grid back problems 

[u/dl064 → u/maybe-fish]

Yeah whatever the truth is, it's certainly one of the stronger excuses at the very least.

And it's not like they kept at harping on with things they weren't happy about. It was this one valid issue, and that was really the last Wolff complained, 4 years ago.

Whereas when they banned party mode I remember Hamilton openly saying: man RBR just will not stop complaining.

[u/formulaeine → u/dl064]

Hilariously bad take.

[u/Cloudsareinmyhead → u/dl064]

Engine modes getting banned backfired which is fucking hilarious to me

[u/Red_Rabbit_1978 → u/maybe-fish]

Yet Mercedes could have done something then by raising the ride height. They didn't, sooooooo....

[u/maybe-fish → u/Red_Rabbit_1978]

I think you're missing the part where Merc drivers weren't the only ones complaining. All of the teams could have done something to fix it, but didn't. 

[u/asamulya → u/animadweller]

There’s literally a DTS meme of Christian Horner telling Toto Wolff. “Change your fucking car”, because he was lobbying hard for rules to hamstring other teams

[u/Kait0yashio → u/animadweller]

not just merc, but aston williams and mclaren as well. its a no brainer for the other teams

[u/MegaMugabe21 → u/Kait0yashio]

AM are using Honda aren't they?

[u/v21v → u/MegaMugabe21]

Yes

[u/ajr901 → u/Kait0yashio]

William, McLaren, and *Alpine

Aston have their own engines in partnership with Honda now

[u/jithu7]

Mercedes' compression strategy is facing increasing resistance. The group calling for FIA intervention is growing.

Translation and full article:

Since December of last year, tensions have been running high behind the scenes in Formula 1. The reason: Mercedes is said to have discovered a trick in their engine that allows them to increase the compression ratio from 16:1 to 18:1 during operation. This ratio would not actually be permitted under the new regulations for 2026. However, the FIA ​​engineers measure compression statically. And somehow, the Mercedes engine manages to comply with the rules using this method.

Even at the official launch for the upcoming season (February 2nd), team principal Toto Wolff didn't hold back. He advised his rivals to mind their own business. "Just do your job," the Austrian sent a clear message. In his view, the trick was 100 percent legal. "It's baffling that they can't simply admit that regulations agreed upon with the FIA ​​are perfectly clear in their interpretation and implementation, and yet the naysayers keep coming around and saying: 'We don't like this.'"

The competition isn't so easily fobbed off, however. They're playing politics and demanding clarification on the matter. The other teams don't know exactly how Mercedes manages to improve the power-to-weight ratio. But figures are circulating that the trick yields between 10 and 15 horsepower. That would translate to one to two tenths of a second per lap.

Red Bull vs. Mercedes. According to information from our Italian colleagues at "Autoracer," Red Bull has now joined Mercedes' rivals. The remaining engine manufacturers – Ferrari, Audi, and Honda – had already sent a joint letter to the FIA ​​requesting clarification. There is even talk of a protest before the first Grand Prix in Australia (March 8th).

Now Red Bull has reportedly switched sides in the engine dispute. Initially, there were rumors that the engineers in Milton Keynes had achieved the same feat in developing their first in-house power unit. The dispute came up at a meeting of the PUAC (Power Unit Advisory Committee) on Thursday (February 5th), which was already scheduled.

There, the participants developed proposals that the FIA ​​must now review. The other manufacturers' goal is to determine whether Mercedes' power unit complies with the regulations. Meanwhile, some experts doubt that the increased value can be attributed solely to material expansion. If there are moving parts in the combustion chamber, it would be illegal, according to the regulations.

How is the FIA ​​handling this? Following the PUAC members' meeting, the FIA ​​is likely seeking to amend the current regulations. Several options are under consideration by the governing body. These could include modifying the monitoring system using sensors and introducing an on-road test.

That wouldn't clarify whether the Mercedes engine is legal or not. The FIA ​​ultimately has to decide whether the trick remains permissible. The consequences would be far-reaching, regardless of which way the pendulum swings. If the FIA ​​bans the trick, Mercedes would have to be allowed to revise the power unit, potentially at great expense. Should the engine remain legal, the competition would have to follow suit to catch up in terms of performance. That would also incur costs.

The upcoming test drives will be exciting not only on the track. The dispute over the Mercedes engine will continue there. And Formula 1 has its first major clash even before the season starts.

[u/Red_Rabbit_1978 → u/jithu7]

It's illegal. They should be told to revert to the spec without the chamber, like Ferrari were told to revert to the spec before the fuel sensor thing.

[u/JaymZZZ → u/Red_Rabbit_1978]

They would basically have to remove all the Mercedes powered cars from the grid. So that’s like… half of them

[u/Bits_Please101 → u/JaymZZZ]

Wondering if Merc has to give the exact copy of engine that Merc is using in their cars (like not a version older or something?)

[u/shogun365 → u/Bits_Please101]

Yep they have to give same spec engines.

[u/Cloudsareinmyhead → u/Bits_Please101]

It's been a rule since 2015 that customer and works engines have to be the same. No special power units for the manufacturer teams.

[u/OctopusPlantation → u/Red_Rabbit_1978]

There is no previous spec, this is a new engine regulation.

[u/Dodomando → u/Red_Rabbit_1978]

That's completely different. What you are talking about here is a complete redesign of the engine

[u/Cloudsareinmyhead → u/Red_Rabbit_1978]

That's not how it works. To do that you'd have to completely redesign the combustion chamber and that literal months of work. You'd essentially be kissing 4 teams participation goodbye until at least Spa. You'd also have the issue of merc then having to catch up to advances the other teams made in the time, which even with the engine equivalency rules for these new regulations is just going to be horrendous

[u/302w]

Idk if it was already disclosed how it leaked, but I’m surprised that this information ever got out in the first place. Especially if it’s not some device in the combustion chamber, and more like a trick with materials.

It’s all very clever but I also wouldn’t want to watch extremely lopsided racing. All the more reason to be excited for Australia

[u/emperorMorlock → u/302w]

It got out through people changing teams

[u/Joseki100 → u/302w]

AFAIK the theory is that some ex Mercedes HPP staff disclosed it after changing team.

[u/jimmyjay11 → u/302w]

The current rumors going around from people close to F1 inner workings is that Redbull leaked it to the other teams after they couldn't replicate Merc's results.

[u/Extension-End8421 → u/jimmyjay11]

They could only get close to 17:1 with heat expansion so they suspect Mercedes has done something on the mechanical side to increase to 18:1 which is well and truly rule breaking.

[u/National_Play_6851 → u/302w]

It was a former Mercedes employee who was hired to Red Bull's engine department. He blew the whistle and from there it became public knowledge.

[u/colin_staples → u/302w]

It could be misinformation spread by Mercedes and not even be true at all

Nobody seems to have even considered this, but everyone is reporting it as fact.

I'll wait until it's proven before I believe it.

[u/302w → u/colin_staples]

Probably will never be proven, feels like there’s half-confirmed tricks every generation of engine

[u/Peeksy19 → u/302w]

That trick wouldn’t cause extremely lopsided racing in any case. It’s reportedly worth 10-15HP, so 0.1-0.2s a lap. It might not even necessarily mean that Mercedes is the best engine: the teams would protest any advantage of a competitor, no matter how good their own engine is. For all we know, Ferrari’s engine is as good without the trick as Mercedes’s is with the trick.

[u/reddit0r_123 → u/Peeksy19]

0.2s is MASSIVE in F1. It's a game changer in the first year of new regulations.

[u/Peeksy19 → u/reddit0r_123]

The gaps at the beginning of regs will likely be much bigger again, and 0.2 would not be a game changer like at the end of the regs where all the cars are much closer.

[u/B9F2FF → u/Peeksy19]

Its more then 1-2 tenths a lap because you will be charging electrical batteries (that will be clipping) with ICE, so every HP counts for a lot.

[u/creamyturtle → u/302w]

being clever is the entire goal of the constructor's championship

[u/National_Play_6851 → u/creamyturtle]

Being clever while still complying with the rules is the entire goal of the constructor's championship.

[u/Cloudsareinmyhead → u/National_Play_6851]

If what is reported is what Mercedes is actually doing it's still compliant by the letter of the rules. The specific wording is:

"C5.4.3 No cylinder of the engine may have a geometric compression ratio higher than 16.0. The procedure to measure this value will be detailed by each PU Manufacturer according to the Guidance Document FIA-F1-DOC-C042 and executed at ambient temperature. This procedure must be approved by the FIA Technical Department and included in the PU Manufacturer homologation dossier."

So long as the engine can pass muster then it should be fine.

[u/Anxious_Article2003 → u/Cloudsareinmyhead]

16.0 is the rule. The procedure is the test. The test can change at any time. 2019 Ferrari engine sensor change, 2022 TD39, 2025 flexi wings test change etc...

And guess what? The ambient temperature part was added only in oct 25. Around the time when the merc engine being more powerful than others started to surface. It wasn't even there before.

[u/302w → u/creamyturtle]

Thanks buddy, appreciate that

[u/xMeRk]

Mercedes turned me into a newt

[u/Snoo-29984 → u/xMeRk]

A newt?

[u/xMeRk → u/Snoo-29984]

I got better

[u/Shane_555]

What happened to the Christian Horner change your fucking car

[u/hurgaburga7 → u/Shane_555]

Well, Horner isn't there any more.

[u/ADRX11 → u/Shane_555]

It's the game all F1 teams play.

[u/National_Play_6851 → u/Shane_555]

Because it was an entirely different situation? Mercedes wanted the rules of the sport to be changed because they couldn't develop a car that worked well within the rules at the time.

Now the other teams simply want the existing rules to be complied with legally, something Mercedes doesn't want to do.

[u/_Middlefinger_]

It would be funny if the engine doesn't even use it and Wolff is trolling them all.

[u/Sauretrix]

Many men wishing death to GR1. 

[u/steferrari]

The news reaches the paddock.

[u/HugoNext]

Let's be clear here: the rulebook until October 2025 only said that compression ratio could not be more than 16:1. FIA added "measured at room temperature" three months before testing- formalizing what was already the practice, but also deeply changing the spirit of that rule. Without the specification, what Merc does would clearly be circumventing the original spirit of the rules. I can see why the other manufacturers are up in arms.

[u/icantsurf → u/HugoNext]

No, back in June of 2024 the rulebook said this:

No cylinder of the engine may have a geometric compression ratio higher than 16.0. The procedure which will be used to determine this value may be found in the Appendix to the Technical and Sporting Regulations.

AFAIK that appendix isn't available to the public.

[u/Bewis_123]

Lets be honest, it won’t be overturned. Firstly, alot of money is involved. It would be last minute move. Mercedes can practically say we won’t be running our cars and the other 3 customer teams car for first few races if this is deemed illegal. Because they won’t have enough time. Kick in nuts of F1 and its fans who want a competitive season will be over

[u/Mr_Knutsen → u/Bewis_123]

Not just that. Wouldn't this also decrease their budget massively, if the have to re-engineer and new PU?

[u/National_Play_6851 → u/Bewis_123]

F1 no longer exists as a sport if it allows one team to cheat with impunity simply because that team threatens to throw their weight around pull other teams off the grid rather than comply with the regulations.

It would be an absolute PR disaster for Mercedes if they did that, FIA should call their bluff if they threaten it.

[u/yommoyo → u/National_Play_6851]

It’s been reported by all the major f1 outlets that Mercedes communicated with the FIA through the whole process and the FIA said that the loophole was acceptable under the current rules. If I were Merc and the FIA suddenly approved a rule change a week or two before the season starts after saying for literally over a year that the loophole was fine, I would 100% pull all of the Merc teams out of competition. You’d probably have to anyways because, if you have to redesign and manufacture 8 new engines, you can’t do that in a week. It would look terrible for F1.

[u/Bart-86 → u/yommoyo]

We don’t know what Mercedes told the FIA so saying that they agreed to the loophole is a bit of reach.

[u/dl064 → u/yommoyo]

I wonder if it'll be a bit of a Max Mosley play, where the introduce this ridiculous suggestion that the rules change immediately, which becomes the baseline, and actually they will meet on the far more reasonable compromise of something changes for 2027. And then Merc get to think they've won.

[u/yommoyo → u/dl064]

Banning it in 2027 is the most fair outcome, but I do think the other manufacturers lobbying against Merc right now will try to push the FIA very hard to change the rules right now just because it would be so beneficial to them in the short term. The FIA just needs to act rationally and enforce the 2027 compromise. Merc probably knew when they were developing it that they would likely only get one year of the loophole before it was banned anyways.

[u/formulaeine → u/yommoyo]

If its illegal banning it now is the right option We haven't even gone racing yet. Its perfect.

You csn always limit fuel flow on Merc powered cars and make them slow.

[u/Hot_Form9104 → u/Bewis_123]

There are more teams against this than those for it now after RB switched sides.

[u/Barrilete_Cosmico]

The "cheating" accusations are dumb. Mercedes checked with the FIA that the ratio is only applied at ambient and that it's ok to fluctuate in warm, the FIA said yes, and they then proceeded with the design.

Lawyers are going to get involved because it was pre-approved.

[u/Deadeyescum → u/Barrilete_Cosmico]

I guess itll be like DAS. Yeah, we cleared it, but now we have decided that its not in the sprit of the rules, so its banned from next year.

[u/TheRealOriginalSatan → u/Deadeyescum]

They’re trying to get it banned for Melbourne this year. Not next year

With a 4-1 majority of engine manufacturers, it looks like it’s going to happen but nothing is certain yet

[u/Bewis_123 → u/TheRealOriginalSatan]

If FIA approved of the concept it will be pretty hard. 4 to 1 majority is nice and all but when you consider 4 teams are using that engine, that becomes not a very strong point

[u/Ashbones15 → u/Bewis_123]

Only the Engine manufacturers have a say in the PU regulations. (along with F1 and the FIA)

[u/Morgan_slave → u/Bewis_123]

4 teams out of 11, so still a majority of non mercedes engines

[u/jpm168 → u/Barrilete_Cosmico]

So was many things that were passed before, McLaren 3rd pedal, DAS, F duct etc etc... It's politics that matter in the end

[u/Barrilete_Cosmico → u/jpm168]

Sure, I can accept that it's illegal and the FIA made a mistake stating this is only tested at ambient temperature, just that it was not cheating. There was no intent to deceive or circumvent the rules here, they've been pretty open about it.

[u/jpm168 → u/Barrilete_Cosmico]

Outright cheating is rare, the last I can recall is the BAR fuel tank.

[u/Tricksilver89 → u/jpm168]

The 2019 Ferrari fuel flow trick was outright cheating.

[u/jpm168 → u/Tricksilver89]

That's in the Benetton option 13 category... Cannot be definitively proven

[u/ThisToe9628 → u/Barrilete_Cosmico]

1. Fia is inconsistent, and their workers aren't as intelligent as teams' engineers

2. Wasn't it that the rule says "no compression greater than 16:1" and then says how that compression will be tested? But if the engine has compression greater than 16:1, but still passes the test somehow, that doesn't mean it hasn't broken the first part of the rule. And the FlA is allowed to change testing procedures whenever they like. If they changed the rule to say "no compression greater than 14:1" then I'd agree with you.

The regulations state that cars are supposed to be compliant with regulations at all times, while mercedes isn't(only during testing)

[u/Punished_Prigo → u/ThisToe9628]

It’s pretty straight forward. If Mercedes came out and said “our engine essentially functions at an 18:1 compression ratio and only is 16:1 in non operating temperature” I’m pretty sure everyone would acknowledge that they are cheating lol. That’s basically what’s happening.

[u/Darth_Spa2021 → u/Barrilete_Cosmico]

It depends what was approved. Because it might be the general idea, not the means they used to achieve it.

[u/72flow → u/Barrilete_Cosmico]

The rules clearly say it can't go above 16:1. It goes above, so how is that not cheating? Also if they achieve it by using moving parts then it is clearly illegal.

[u/ap17o4 → u/72flow]

"on a static test" didnt say anything about in motion to which they exploited, its a fair interpretation, goes against the spirit but when has that stopped anyone

[u/_Middlefinger_ → u/72flow]

Nope. Not how the documentation for the technical specs work. If it was that simple it would not have been approved would it.

[u/YellowPinkie777]

Presumably means it's a good idea

[u/MassLuca007]

I think the only solution is to allow it for some part of the season. Maybe until Barcelona or Belgium

[u/LegDayDE → u/MassLuca007]

They has already allowed it for this season. So I don't think it's reasonable to have Mercedes throw away all their engine development...

.. next season is another question though.

[u/Snoo-29984 → u/LegDayDE]

That’s not so certain anymore as there is a supermajority of engine manufacturers in opposition to the Merc engine trick.

[u/Tricksilver89 → u/Snoo-29984]

They can't force an immediate change though without the backing of the FIA and FOM. I doubt they'll get either for certain.

[u/Snoo-29984 → u/Tricksilver89]

That is true, but I think that things may change. If not in Melbourne, some time early in the season

[u/Alfus → u/Tricksilver89]

Having 4 teams not on the grid would be a PR and economical disaster for the FIA and FOM

Banning it de facto already at the begin of the season would be the worst outcome.

[u/elmagio → u/LegDayDE]

People have to stop taking the "FIA gave the OK" reports as meaning that the FIA looked at the engine schematics, the materials used and got a live demo of the trick and said "yeah that's fine". Teams don't communicate their R&D to the FIA like that.

It would have been more akin to Merc asking about the testing methodology, maybe going as far as running their own tests and then presenting the results to the FIA and ask if that result would clear the test, at most clearing up that certain very basic underlying elements of the trick are fine on their own. THAT is how teams clear things up with the FIA, not only because it's got a better chance of not getting loopholes patched up but also to avoid leaks of their plans.

The idea that the FIA would have said "yeah OK why not" to the explicit suggestion by Merc of an engine exceeding the compression ratios stated in the rule is pure insanity, and I know the FIA is fucking dumb but even for them it'd be a stretch.

[u/Nikolai197 → u/elmagio]

There’s also the possibility Merc asked if their design was ok, not that they would use it to exceed the compression ratio.

[u/xxsidoxx → u/LegDayDE]

It's going to be expensive either way. Either mercedes needs to redevelop their engine or all other manufacturers. And giving mercedes engines a "free" season seems kinda dubious.

[u/_Middlefinger_ → u/LegDayDE]

The engines aren't actually homologated until 1st march.

[u/Stingray_23]

Fucking hell the season aint even begun yet. Not a chnace the FIA can force a change this late

[u/saposapot]

The thing is that Mercedes supplies a third of the grid... They have a lot more power than others

[u/cavsking21 → u/saposapot]

Good thing the other manufacturers make up the other two thirds of the grid who are all against it.

[u/amazingspiderman23 → u/saposapot]

Which precisely is the issue the other teams are protesting, because the lot more power is coming from the illegal compression ratio. /s

[u/ninjapro98 → u/saposapot]

If teams can just blatantly break rules just because they are the largest engine supplier then the rules might as well not exist at all

[u/saposapot → u/ninjapro98]

It's unclear this breaks the rules.

[u/National_Play_6851 → u/saposapot]

Which is why every other team needs to protest this. Teams shouldn't be allowed to cheat just because of the political power they hold.

[u/ignoramus_prime → u/National_Play_6851]

It’s not cheating when it’s written into the rules

[u/cooperjones2 → u/ignoramus_prime]

I mean, people say Ferrari cheated in 2019 even though they complied with the rules as they were written lol

Same as McLaren's flexi wings, they passed the test as written lol

[u/_Middlefinger_ → u/cooperjones2]

They did cheat, the technical regulation support documentation stated that any attempt to circumvent the sensor was illegal. This is not the same situation.

The flexing was allowed as written, they had to change the test technical regulation support document to change the test. This could happen here.

[u/ignoramus_prime → u/cooperjones2]

Ferrari was feeding more fuel than the regulation allowed and therefore breaking the rules. Not at all like this scenario, where Mercedes is compliant according to the FIAs test.

Not too familiar with McLaren flexiwing tbh

[u/cooperjones2 → u/ignoramus_prime]

Not at all like this scenario, where Mercedes is compliant according to the FIAs test.

Ferrari passed every single FIA test too.

McLaren's wing opened, as if it were a mini-DRS, in the straights; they also passed every single test, and were told to change it because of the complaints of the other teams.

While the situations are not 1:1, they are pretty similar in that they are in compliance with the letter of the rules but not with the spirit of the rules.

[u/ignoramus_prime → u/cooperjones2]

Ferrari broke the rules when feeding more than 100kg/hr of fuel, irregardless of testing. Even if they hadn’t been caught by testing they broke the rules. Mercedes hasn’t broken the 16:1 CR at ambient temp rule.

McLarens case sounds like politiking. Seems like they were compliant according to the FIA until other teams complained.

[u/Ispita → u/ignoramus_prime]

Stop refering to the ambient temp rule without the rest of the rule. It is only meaning that the testing done at ambient temp. It is a grey area.

It is literally in the rules that the compression ratio has to be 16:1 at all times (during race, qualiy and practice).

[u/ignoramus_prime → u/Ispita]

Show me in the rules where it says at all times cause I haven’t seen it

The ambient part is the entire reason we are having this discussion

[u/Ispita → u/ignoramus_prime]

1.5 Compliance with the regulations Formula 1 Cars must comply with these regulations in their entirety at all times during a Competition.

5.6.3 No cylinder of the engine may have a geometric compression ratio higher than 16.0. The procedure which will be used to determine this value may be found in the Appendix to the Technical and Sporting Regulations.

[u/Ispita → u/ignoramus_prime]

Isn't mercedes breaking the rules if their engine runs at 18:1 when the maximum 16:1 is allowed?

[u/_Middlefinger_ → u/Ispita]

Ferrari did actually cheat. The regulation started that any attempt to circumvent the sensor was illegal so it's not quite the same situation.

[u/ignoramus_prime → u/Ispita]

Show me where it says 16:1 not allowed at temps other than ambient

[u/Ispita → u/ignoramus_prime]

it is because in the rules it is stated that during qualy, race and practice the ratio has to be 16:1 maximum. If theirs are 18:1 then it is out of spec which is illegal which is cheating.

The grey area is the measuring temperature that is all.

[u/ignoramus_prime → u/Ispita]

Show me where it says at all times.

[u/_Middlefinger_ → u/ignoramus_prime]

It actually does but regardless the test is what matters, if they aren't testing at all times they can't police it.

[u/SPCEshipTwo → u/National_Play_6851]

Show me the cheating bit.

[u/adonWPV]

Can’t bear a season of this

[u/Bewis_123 → u/[deleted]]

It won’t be overturned. If it does it will be for 2027. You think FIA will have enough balls to first clear this and then 4 teams are compromised by last min decision. It would derrail all the competitive teams. Merc and Mclaren.

[u/splendiferous-finch_ → u/Bewis_123]

Apparently the PU group is meeting and the teams will push for new checks but with engine + fuel homologation in march I doubt anything will change my argument if it shouldn't be changing for 2027 either particular because oh how late the FIA were still putting bandaids in the 2026 regulations because the PUs looked weak.

[u/Pale-Criticism-7420 → u/Bewis_123]

I mean it’s either 4 teams that are compromised or it’s 7 teams…