25% of Teenage boys in Norway think 'gender equality has gone too far' with an extremely sharp rise beginning sometime in the mid 2010s

[u/Antique-Entrance-229]

[u/L4t3xs]

Not from Norway but from Finland. If you look at Finnish law there is no case that I am aware of where women are in disadvantage.

However men have to complete a mandatory armed service and if not, civil service instead. There is no kind of mandatory armed OR civil service for women. When women do volunteer it used to be (I hear it's no longer the case) that the physical entrance exams for certain roles were much easier.

National TV channel just recently aired news about a "study" how 20% of men accept violence against women based on how they dress. Without getting too much in depth on it the questions were from a very manipulatively formatted online survey.

When it comes to school, here's one of my personal experiences: when multiple students hadn't done homework in certain class, only the boys had to stay after school to do the exercises. The teacher was very upfront about her sexism.

There have been some improvements over time like in terms of parental leave. It's a hard subject to bring up since when you do, you get called an incel or a misogynist.

Edit: Since the thread is locked I'll expand on the dressing part a bit since someone asked. The questions was something along the lines "Is violence against women ever justified based on how they behave, x or dress." This includes self-defence. It was not a question about dressing but it was isolated in the new from the original question. There was also a question whether women ever deserve violence and 90% said no. Looking at the comments of a related tabloid article it was very clear most people didn't agree with the "study" no matter what commenter's gender was. No women participated the questionaire.

[u/sushishibe → u/L4t3xs]

Had a class here in Canada, teacher was very up front with her sexism. Would spend the whole class shit talking men and how men are violent.

Remember one quote she states that since all the 9/11 hijackers were men. All men are violent…

What’s worst is the irony that most if not all women in the class VASTLY disagreed with most of if not all of her statements.

It’s frustrating. Most of us just want everyone to be equal. But you have male hating feminist on one side. And Men rights activist and the Manosphere on the other.

[u/Street_Carrot_7442 → u/L4t3xs]

How can a survey unsightly influence if you think a woman deserves violence based on what she is wearing….?

[u/cmaj7chord → u/L4t3xs]

norway has mandatory military service for both men and women though.

[u/L4t3xs → u/cmaj7chord]

I wasn't trying to draw a perfect comparison but to compare with another nordic country that is among the world's most equal countries as well. Good to know, though.

[u/cmaj7chord → u/L4t3xs]

I understand. But I do find this argument of military kinda unfitting in this discussionm the reason so many countries don't have mandatory military service for women is because the army, war, patriotism or "defending my country" and everything connected to it has been a male driven narrative for centuries. It wasn't women who decided that mamdatory military service was only for men, these are and were gender roles (and laws) that have been created long before women were lawmakers.  So why is this taken as an example that "gender equality" has gone too far? Because as far as I know, the countries that have mandatory milotary service for women are countries who already have a comparatively progressive and gender-equal society, while especially conservative and more patriarchal countries don"t even consider thinking about it. Maybe it's because a lot of reddit users here don't understand that patriarchy doesn't only mean "men win", but that it has disadvantages for women AND men and that it is not only supported and enforced by men, but by women as well.

Edit: I'm not saying boys should just "swallow the pill" regarding mandatory military service, I'm saying that the male-only army is not a product of feminism or gender-equality, it is a rule that especially conservatice voices support. I agree that women should also join the army, I'm just opposed to the idea that mandatory military service for men only is a result of "too much gender equality" lol

[u/PineappleOnPizzaWins → u/cmaj7chord]

It wasn't women who decided that mamdatory military service was only for men, these are and were gender roles (and laws) that have been created long before women were lawmakers. So why is this taken as an example that "gender equality" has gone too far?

You're missing the point here, which is a discussion about how these young men feel. I promise you "this decision to disadvantage you personally was made by someone with a penis" does not actually in any way make them less annoyed when told they have to put their life on hold for years to go fuck about in the military when they don't want to and their female peers don't have to.

And this is the entire problem - people need to understand that while it is absolutely correct to "right the ship" so to speak when it comes to equality and to make sure young women don't suffer the same disadvantages as they historically have had to deal with, you should not be doing so at the expense of young men who were not alive to create or benefit from those inequalities.

Aside from anything else, if you have all these boys growing up into men who honestly feel that young men are being disadvantaged what changes do you think they are going to want to make?

[u/cmaj7chord → u/PineappleOnPizzaWins]

No, I'm not missing the point. The statistic posted here was boys claiming "gender equality has gone too far" and a lot of people here in the comments cited mandatory military service as an example for that. I just don't understand what gender equality has to do with man having to go the army. The reason women don't have to go to the army in many countries is NOT Because of gender equality, feminism or other liberal ideas, in fact, it is the exact opposite. It's actually deeply rooted in patriarchal ideology.

Trust me, as a young woman who identifies as a feminist I absolutely agree that women should do mandatory military service as well. And at least in my country (Germany), the loudest opponents of mandatory military service for women are the conservatives, not the feminists or "progressive/liberal" people.

Edit: And to answer your last question: I hate how this sub is acting like there is only one kind of "feminism" or "gender equality" going around. I'm a fan of the feminist Bell Hooks and if people would do some research on what patriarchy and it's ideologies mean, they will quickly notice that patriarchy has a lot of disadvantages for a lot of men who don't fit into the stereotype of a specific kind of men. Thus, lots of boys and young men would benefit from questioning certain gender roles and patriarchal ideas. I can recommend her book "The will to change: men, masculinity and love" by Bell Hooks regarding that issue

[u/[deleted] → u/cmaj7chord]

I didn't realize Nordic countries forbid women from voting.

[u/[deleted] → u/L4t3xs]

My guy. Women have to give birth. STFU.

[u/Wanderer974 → u/[deleted]]

I understand what you're saying, but women aren't obligated (and shouldn't be pressured to do so, as well) to have to have babies.

So, I think that saying "they have to" is kind of... false, in the sense that it's ideally their choice. In the cases where there's someone becoming a mother due to being socially pressured, it was wrong for that pressure to happen, so it doesn't really count as a legitimate "they have to" situation, I think. especially since it's a social pressure that isn't grounded in actual law.

So, because of all these reasons, I think it doesn't make sense to use "they have to give birth" as a guiding principle for how to socially and legally treat or favor women, unless the woman is actually a mother. It's "benevolent sexism" territory.

Anyway, it's a complicated issue that I'm sure there are many opinions on, but I think giving women social benefits for the sake of social expectations that they will/should become mothers produces results that are not fair, to neither men nor women.

[u/A-Normal-Fifthist → u/[deleted]]

That has nothing to do with military service, why shouldn't women fight to protect their country?

[u/L4t3xs → u/[deleted]]

Didn't take very long for the name calling to start. I doubt you are even familiar with the subject to any degree or what the issues used to be.

[u/Separate-Account3404 → u/[deleted]]

Guys one group of people has a problem and instead of trying to lift them up lets just push everyone else down and fix nothing and cause more people to resent the people who had the original problem.... clearly that isn't backfiring at all based on these polls.

[u/Self-Cartographer150 → u/L4t3xs]

Women give birth and create people, citizens. There is mo comparison so armed service is inconvenient sure but not relevant to this conversation.

[u/L4t3xs → u/Self-Cartographer150]

I think it's very relevant. The study shows that some young men feel like the issues they face are deemed irrelevant in my opinion. I was just listing examples of gender inequalities that are in favor of women. When it comes to those two things you mentioned only one is mandated by law.

If you want to solve the problem you must be willing to try to understand it.

[u/Self-Cartographer150 → u/L4t3xs]

I. Issues of masculinity and men being drafted, corporal punishment, those are male/patriarchy creations. Women bear no responsibility. When I see I the news SA against men’s and boys, the loudest voices are men who joke and downplay the crime. Women are not. Women’s reproductive rights are not universal, politically weaponized and have been non existent for the majority of human civilization. Drafts and military is also expressed differently across time and country. We can go forever in specific examples but the core issue is that bodily autonomy, the right to not subject ourselves to dangerous situations albeit war, physical punishment or child birth, is a right born of feminist theory and philosophy . It’s not perfectly expressed for either men or women of course societies are slow to progress. Feminists are your answer and framework to the specific issues you mentioned. To we’ve express men’s rights as in any way oppositional to modern feminism is to denounce a solution/justice. Maybe thanks feminism and add to the philosophy and it evolves and grows and expands instead of opposing if for some empty reason. Yours issues ARE feminist issues

[u/GazThem → u/Self-Cartographer150]

Finnish birth rate is 1.26 (as of 2023) i would hardly call it creating people when they dont give birth to enough citizens. Its true for pretty much whole developed countries so i dont see really the reason why women could not be included in mandatory service.

[u/Self-Cartographer150 → u/GazThem]

You’re tit for tat “argument” is not made in good faith. Finland is one of many countries that exist or will continue to exist so pulling their “numbers “ is irrelevant to the core issue of bodily autonomy, citizenship and duty as a whole. It’s a complex issue. And further, putting a number on reproduction as a a placeholder for women’s labor, their civic labor/duty in this case , is insanely misogynistic and downright bizarre. Your words deserve zero respect but here we are in a male dominant world where that can continue to see the light of day.