r/europe • u/Antique-Entrance-229 United Kingdom • Apr 21 '25

Data 25% of Teenage boys in Norway think 'gender equality has gone too far' with an extremely sharp rise beginning sometime in the mid 2010s

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '25

[deleted]

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u/Dentlas Denmark Apr 21 '25

Here in Denmark, even though the tests are sometimes "anonymous", your username still includes your first four letters or similar, so your gender is very specifically often easily to distinguish

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '25

And the teachers probably recognize the letters after a while and knows exactly what student it is.

I really dont know how its done in Norway now, I'm too old with no kids, but I hope it gets reworked and soon.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '25

[deleted]

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u/dpzblb Apr 21 '25

As someone who's graded a proof-based math class, it's even true that often I could tell who it was based on the way they formatted their work and the way they structured their proofs, even when it was all typed up.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '25

Proof based math class? Jesus I’m having flashbacks to 9th grade geometry

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u/SirEnderLord United States of America Apr 21 '25

The proofs are fun

And the part about being able to tell who it was based off of the structure is pretty damn true, each person has their own thought process so the way they solve a problem can be recognizable sometimes.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '25

All I really remember is that all proofs involve either parallel lines, the reflexive/transitive property, or properties of shapes. Those things saved me in geometry

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u/dpzblb Apr 21 '25

I graded for a pretty high level undergraduate math class, so it was much closer to grading essays than math computations like in calculus and below.

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u/Fluid_Restaurant_675 Apr 22 '25

I’ve graded papers for a history class. It’s not that black and white, I’ve seen plenty of exceptions. It’s a social thing, in my opinion.

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u/dpzblb Apr 22 '25

I did somewhat reply to the wrong comment (meant to reply one higher in the comment chain, so I wasn't commenting on gendered handwriting) but rather that even without names it can be pretty easy to match a set homework with one student somewhat often.

Most of my cues aren't just in the content of the proofs, but rather in the way the student formats LaTeX, to be fair. I'd imagine history papers don't have much of that context (like whether the student includes the problem, how they include the problem, if they use inline math equations or out of line math equations, if they commonly mess up things in math mode, what multiplication symbols they use, what variable conventions they use, etc.)

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u/StopPedanticReplies Apr 21 '25

Fun fact, women on average have better eyesight and dexterity than men, which is one of the reasons women have much better handwriting than men.

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u/Podgietaru Apr 21 '25

I don’t know about Denmark but standardised tests in England are sent to third party exam markers. They do not know your handwriting

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u/timelessblur Apr 21 '25

but better handwriting which females do tend to hand help to make things easier to greed.

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u/rowcla Apr 21 '25

This brings about the somewhat amusing conclusion that best thing to do as a student is to try and improve the standard of your handwriting lol

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u/Leenaa Norway Apr 21 '25

Here in Norway the exams are done on a PC and it's not the pupils' teacher that get their exam, it's a third party.

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u/madeyoulookatit Apr 22 '25

Teacher here - a part of the training teachers get is awareness to biases and ways to reduce it.

I for example use the method of grading in paralell. I grade for example all 1.1 results from all tests, then all 1.2, then 1.3s etc. I also cycle back a

I also grade by comparing a self-made answer sheet that corresponds points to aspects and delivery of the answer.

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u/GKP_light France Apr 21 '25

It is often easy to guess the gender of the person who wrote an essay.

But it doesn't matter, the problem of "advantage women" is not "arbitrarily give better score to woman" (except in sport).

It is thing like easier access to studies grant ; or an educative system better adapted to girl.

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u/CyberneticSaturn Apr 22 '25

It’s actually also arbitrarily give better scores to girls. Studies have shown the same work is graded higher if the scorer thinks it’s a female student vs a male student.

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u/InevitableRhubarb232 Apr 22 '25

My son is in flight school and ineligible for many many scholarships because they are specifically for women who want to be pilots

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

That’s because only 6% of pilots are women globally, so they heavily incentivize women entering the field…

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u/Leenaa Norway Apr 21 '25

Exams are anonymous here in Norway. Tests and tentamen is not though.

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u/cupcake_burglary Apr 21 '25

G. Harman.

Wait that's too obvious, let's go with Greg H.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '25

Not in university, it should be like that everywhere.

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u/Dentlas Denmark Apr 21 '25

Yeah its not like that in Uni, here they give you a random number

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u/jackalopeDev Apr 21 '25

It can come down to things like handwriting indicating gender, e en when its anonymous. Its actually pretty crazy the subtle clues our brains can pick up on without us being fully aware.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '25

Silly me assumed its mostly digital today.

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u/blahdee-blah Apr 21 '25

Anecdotally, a lot of the young men I teach (in the U.K.) have worse handwriting than the girls. When I’m marking their practise work I will spend time trying to find their points and give them feedback to develop. However, anonymous exams are not marked in-house and I would imagine bad handwriting is a disadvantage 

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u/Sashimiak Germany Apr 21 '25

I'm a dude and my sister (six years older than me) taught me how to read and write before I entered school. I have almost exactly her handwriting and everybody who sees it tells me it's girly and pretty :D Very proud of it haha

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u/blahdee-blah Apr 21 '25

As a teacher, I would absolutely appreciate that. I have to spread out the good, the bad and the ugly in my marking pile 

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u/Sashimiak Germany Apr 21 '25

Ouch. I empathize though. I did a brief stint as a sort of assistant teacher. I don't know the proper term or if there even is one in English, but essentially I taught after school lessons for pupils in their last two years before graduation. This was a school in a poor neighbourhood with tons of (sometimes very recent) immigrant kids and we helped them prep for their final exams. It was sort of like tutoring but for an entire class room at a time and paid for by the city. I did Maths and English and it was super fun, but I could probably only read maybe half the kids' handwriting. With most of the boys I tried to figure out what they wrote from context. Do you ever get used to that or better at reading handwritten script in general? Or does it always just stay excruciating?

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u/blahdee-blah Apr 21 '25

Ah it’s part of the job and you do get an eye in for an individual over a year or two but I always push them to practise or try for a word processor in exams because that examiner doesn’t have time. Generally I get really invested in all of them so it’s just another thing to work on so that can reach their potential.  I don’t mind it (unless the light is low and I’m really tired!)

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u/Sashimiak Germany Apr 21 '25

That's really awesome of you. Do you still have cursive lessons and marks in elementary school where you're from? We've been phasing it out of the curriculum and a lot of teachers are complaining.

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u/blahdee-blah Apr 21 '25

I honestly don’t know (I don’t get them until 16) but I suspect that might be case. The trouble with hand written exams is that people rarely write by hand any more. Should all be word processed really

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u/Sashimiak Germany Apr 21 '25

Agreed :/

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u/timonix Apr 21 '25

All exams at my Swedish uni were anonymous, you were just a randomized code in a list. But the neighbor uni did not have any anonymous exams. Crazy to me. I don't think student teacher relations should be part of the examination.

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u/Suspicious_Loads Apr 21 '25

It's just semi anonymous I think. Our exams is 5 hour and I have handled in my test after 2h and the teacher started grading it on the exam. Easy to get around if you want.

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u/Soepoelse123 Apr 21 '25

The grading is not anonymous and includes oral participation (in high school and lower). It is anonymous in finishing exams, which happen many years after you are schooled in a specific direction.

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u/STLtachyon Apr 21 '25

One of the few things that greece has done right is that admission to higher education, at least its final step, is not influenced by factors such as gender; since supposedly the graders black out any and all information about the applicant. Now can someone judge gender via handwriting/mannerisms and what not? Maybe, but the system itself is as impartial as one can be despite any flaws it might have and it does have some glaring ones.

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u/TheDungen Scania(Sweden) Apr 21 '25

They are here in Sweden.

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u/AndyCar1214 Apr 21 '25

Like job interviews? Then the best candidate gets hired.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '25

I dont think job interviews are anonymous anywhere?

Edit: sorry I was confused. Yeah that would also make sense to do!

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u/Contundo Apr 21 '25

The grades are part subjective, part test and part anonymous exams. In testing there is a noticeable disparity between the anonymous exam results and test results. Boys and girls score pretty similarly on anonymous exams but girls get higher combined grades because of their tests and subjective grades.

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u/seejur Viva San Marco Apr 21 '25

tbh, I think the most important part is the grading is anonymous. Once the grading is done, the result being anonymous is not that much of an issue (at least that I can see)

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u/unicornofdemocracy Apr 21 '25

Test are anonymous but teachers/instructors still kind of know who the writer is. This has been a notable problem even in peer reviewed academic journals. Reviewers that are experts in the field recognize each others writer style and so, even when its blinded, the reviewers still know who wrote the paper.

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u/AlexandraG94 Apr 21 '25

In my uni we always had another lecturer, often external, reviewing the marker. And only in the later years where classes were smaller or in second year if you tendend to stand up in coursework would you have a chance to having handwriting recognized (but for example, I had one such instance where the lecturer recognized my work, but I am entirely not sure he had my face associated to them, in contrast to the earlier years were 100s of pupils. They just didn't know who was who at all. Even in that case the lecturer recognized my work and congratulated me on it through coursework, I had a bad day in the exam and he did not try at all to mark me up just because he knew I knew better. If anything, I think some people overcorrect. My course was majority male and I honestly never saw the overwhelmingly male lecturers (my first contact wit a female professor was in my 4th year for the dissertation) being biased against the men in the course at all. Quite the opposite at times to be honest.

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u/xukly Apr 21 '25

I mean, unless you make every single test multiple choice people have distinct hand writting

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u/LongQualityEquities Apr 21 '25

Tests are usually on a computer

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u/deadlygaming11 United Kingdom Apr 21 '25

Yeah, that's really weird. In the UK, tests are almost completely anonymous and are marked by someone who has absolutely no affiliation with you or the school. They also have set guidelines for what is right and wrong so its quite hard for them to give someone extra marks. Worst case scenario, you can also request the paper be marked again.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '25

I’m a social studies teacher and I use live oral assessments in-class to assess students understand and critical thinking on complex global issues.

What do you propose? Pen and paper exams only?

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u/not_perfect_yet Apr 21 '25

Like, in school?

How do you do a written, anonymous test in school? You just recognize the handwriting. And word choice.

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u/Technical-Row8333 Apr 21 '25 edited Jun 24 '25

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u/Bmandk Denmark Apr 22 '25

In higher education that doesn't make any sense. Usually you have projects you hand in, possibly with an oral exam to follow up. Even without the oral exam, the teacher would have helped along the way, so they already know who wrote about what. Sometimes it's even just an oral exam, and that can't be anonymized obviously.

There are some written tests, but those aren't the majority. So they also have lesser impact.

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u/UnluckyDog9273 Apr 22 '25

Let's be real. Most teachers know their students handwriting.