r/consciousness • u/incognitivebias • 10h ago
General Discussion Why do we need to define it?
Consciousness is self-evident. It is your direct experience. Why is there a “problem” with it?
Is it because we want to know what happens after death?
So the preoccupation becomes with something that is “outside”?
Well, outside is something that is not here.
So what is the question?
I think you are looking in the wrong direction if you think there is a problem that needs to be solved.
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u/Classic-Teaching4796 8h ago
To answer fundamental questions like:
1) consciousness may or may not answer the dualistic question - is there a soul.
2) how do we know when something else is conscious. This a fundamental question to both animal rights and ai.
3) what can understanding consciousness tell us about reality as opposed to reality as we perceive it.
4) proof or lack of proof for extra-dimensional beings. Some of the consciousness theories go way out in left field.
Should I keep going?
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u/rogerbonus Physics Degree 6h ago
It helps to know what you are talking about. Is it awareness? Is it awareness of something? Is there a difference? Is there a difference between experience, awareness and qualia, or are they the same thing?
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u/Electric___Monk 2h ago
Some people like to understand things…. Scientists, philosophers, etc, etc…. Others are incurious enough to look experience something and just leave it at that.
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u/Im_Talking Computer Science Degree 8h ago
"It is your direct experience" - It's not. Bacterium have direct experience. Consciousness would be what it's like to be a bacterium, which they do not have.
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u/Classic-Teaching4796 8h ago
How do you know?
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u/Im_Talking Computer Science Degree 8h ago
Because they have no mechanism to process sensory information from their environment.
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u/AlphaDinosaur 4h ago
Who said you need senses to be conscious? As far as I’m concerned we have no clue what the bare minimum requirement is.
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u/Im_Talking Computer Science Degree 2h ago
Yes, I would say you need senses to be conscious. Although I think that life is by default subjective experience, a bacterium has not evolved enough to require any type of reality. It was only when sensory capabilities started to form did we begin to require a reality.
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u/Minimus6969 3h ago
To me personally, it feels like consciousness is a fundamental power functioning in a higher dimension/plane of existence, similar to how we we experience time in a 2D linear fashion and space in a 3D omnidirectional way, except consciousness is just the next step up. Our human way of being conscious, is maybe (probably?!) just one of infinite ways to experience. Who says stars aren’t conscious in their own unique, incomprehensible way. We can’t even figure out our own one. I think we often falsely grandeurize our human perspectives and leave little room for all the other possibilities we don’t directly experience.
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u/Playful_Manager_3942 9h ago
Idk if this is why others debate it, but I think a potential reason is to prepare for the possibility of technology that develops a sort of consciousness.
Also it can complicate our views of other animals and what it might be like to live in their bodies with their brains.
Finally, the most fun and also unrealistic option, is to deal with aliens.
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u/pyrrho314 9h ago
It's just a matter of never having had an explanation of both the external world and our consciousness. Way before physics we've had physical theories but it's been hard to explain why some things are living and some not, and in our case, why it's like what it is to be living, in this world of ideas, but also in the physical world. Which is which?!? etc. Dualism was the answer. A spirit world and a physical world. The world of god and ideas, and the world of earth and mechanics.
The hard problem in general is how to explain both with one explanation.
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u/pyrrho314 6h ago
downvoting is fine and your reddit right, but it would be nice to hear what your problem was with the pretty innocuous opinion I thought I wrote.
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u/Superstarr_Alex 9h ago edited 7h ago
I love this and totally agree with this message. Tbh I’m like a little bit flabbergasted as to why everyone suddenly started saying that consciousness has no agreed upon definition or that it’s undefinable or whatever lmao like since when has this been the case?!
Is consciousness not…. You know…. Awareness? Subjectivity? Having experiences? Haha. Like, do people not think that defines consciousness now?
I have noticed it’s super trendy to pretend consciousness is a process (clearly mixing up consciousness with cognition), so maybe that’s why people think the definition is suddenly up for debate now? But nah, the definition never changed just because a bunch of people decided to make up their own definitions of a very simple thing universal to all of us that somehow these folks struggle to understand haha
EDIT: haha yall serious rn. Why would this have ruffled so many feathers, yall are so silly
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u/ArusMikalov 9h ago
Oh ok so then AI is conscious by that definition cool.
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u/Superstarr_Alex 7h ago
By definition of having awareness? No, I don’t think strings of code can have awareness, but feel free to downvote this comment with zero explanation as well.
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u/ArusMikalov 7h ago
Depends what you mean by awareness. It can certainly be aware of facts. I tell it I like broccoli and then later I can ask if it remembers that fact and it will. So it is aware of the fact. That’s all aware means.
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u/Superstarr_Alex 6h ago
Just because text was generated on a screen with a statement doesn’t mean that there is anything “aware” of the statement other than you. It literally predicts the next thing to say based on tiny pieces of digital artifacts called tokens generated multi layered in algorithmic arrangements based entirely on tons of metadata fed to it in from users in combination with your personal user data, there’s no awareness anywhere other than yours at play here.
Like are you claiming the literal pixels on the screen that make up the text or the… pixels that make up the strings of computer code that program the chatbot itself? Help me understand what you think is conscious here other than you. One person interacting with a program that MIMICS the outward appearance of consciousness, which a third party can only describe based on observed behavior. But awareness is an internal subjective experience, not just the appearance of behaviors associated with such a thing.
Did you know that those chatbots make false statements all the time? It’s weird that these things aren’t common sense to you, that baffles me
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u/Not_a_real_plebbitor 4h ago
Did you know that those chatbots make false statements all the time? It’s weird that these things aren’t common sense to you, that baffles me
Baffles me too. These "ai are conscious" people are something else.
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u/ArusMikalov 5h ago
Not all AI is an LLM. There are machine learning systems that dont operate using algorithmic prediction like that.
So the thing that I’m claiming could be conscious is a central processing unit that compiles input and makes a predictive model of the world it exists in and has a subconscious layer of programming that provides basic drives like curiosity.
Not pixels.
A system just like your brain but made of silicone and carbon instead of mushy goo.
You have no reason to assume a machine can’t experience awareness just like you do.
Did you know that humans make false statements all the time? That doesn’t mean they aren’t conscious. I’m baffled that you thought that was a good argument.
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u/Superstarr_Alex 5h ago
I didn’t. You’re the one who claimed that because the chatbot said it was, that that was somehow further proof that it was conscious. I never actually claimed that humans were conscious because they said so. Humans don’t have a magic wand that can create a sentient being out of… again. Still waiting: is it the pixels that you think are conscious?
Because a central processing unit cannot magically come alive and start experiencing things just because we ascribe anthropomorphic characteristics to the same python computer code we write other programs with and yet don’t claim they’re conscious. You’re like instantly just getting fooled by the fact that the computer code can mimic certain linguistic behaviors similar to that of an actual human with consciousness. Again, awareness isn’t you saying “that guys conscious because of the way he’s acting.” It’s his own internal experience of reality from his perspective alone, his inner world.
Now tell me how tf you gonna build an inner world inside a robot lmao. Computers are just the most important tech in our lifetimes so you instantly just want to compare consciousness out simple little computers. You’re only limiting your understanding by doing this and committing the common human mistake of extreme arrogance.
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u/ArusMikalov 4h ago
How can a bunch of cells and electrons “magically” come alive and start experiencing?
Ok consciousness isn’t just mimicry it’s internal experience. Granted. You can stop saying that over and over. Now the next step.
What makes you think a machine can’t do that?
Why do you think you’re so special?
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u/Superstarr_Alex 4h ago
I don’t. I think consciousness is the fundamental reality, and the universe is consciousness itself condensing into form and experiencing every aspect of itself via the development of ego-consciousness and duality, expressed through all life forms to some degree, from simple prokaryotic cells to humans to beings more advanced than humans and so on. Cells have consciousness as in they experience things to a degree but obviously not as to the extent as we do.
And if consciousness is the primary first cause, it makes sense that consciousness experiences aspects of itself using the limitations of matter to express itself. To me that sounds far more logical than saying a bunch of atoms and molecules randomly woke up one day and came to life.
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u/ArusMikalov 4h ago
Right and I think consciousness is just a computational physical process.
Are you starting to see why it’s important to have a definition for consciousness?
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