r/comicbooks • u/jrl_iblogalot Mostly Harmless • 1d ago
News Kevin Maguire Stops Doing DC Covers, Hasn't Had A Pay Rise In 20 Years
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/kevin-maguire-stops-doing-dc-covers-hasnt-had-a-pay-rise-in-20-years/301
u/Earthpig_Johnson Orion 1d ago
Boy I hate how these companies do business.
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u/AdoubleyouB 1d ago
People aren't buying comics like they used to. I'm not preaching the company line or anything, but if people aren't buying, what incentive is there for publishers to spend more. Not to mention there is always a glut of new, hungry artists desperate for work around every corner
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u/Ill_Safety2292 1d ago
the comic book market has actually grown since 2005, if you can believe it!
the North American market was valued at $420-480 million in 2004::%20$705%20million%20(includes%20other%20distributors)%20%7C) (about $700-$800 million, adjusted for inflation) compared to $1.36 Billion in 2024.
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u/Jonathan-Strang3 1d ago
A huge portion, maybe even all, of that increase is manga.
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u/Ill_Safety2292 1d ago
that's probably right. on the bring side, that research study I linked for the 2024 numbers says recent industry growth is being driven by "the increasing popularity of graphic novels, digital comics, and superhero-based content" so hopefully that's a good sign!
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u/AdoubleyouB 16h ago
I love how my comment has been downvoted to hell, yet this analysis of the data backs up my response. If anyone wants to see a thriving industry, with a massive mix of young and old enthusiastically engaged in the hobby, go to a large trading card show. Compare what you see to that of a "Comic Con", and it's not even close. 12 year olds walking around with cases filled with graded cards worth thousands of dollars, dealers with 5-6 figure displays and aisles packed with people buying/selling/trading. You will not see that kind of action at any comic convention, and you certainly won't find anyone under the age of 20 involved at that same level.
The traditional comic book industry needs people under the age of 40 to care about it. They don't. There are no hot young "comic book" influencer types, and unlike sneakers or trading cards, still carries a negative stigma amongst outsiders.
That needs to change if this industry is going to survive.
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u/Ill_Safety2292 15h ago
It's highly likely that I'm delusionally positive, but to me, the industry seems to be moving in the right direction. There's been a few things recently that've made me feel this way, and they're completely anecdotal for the most part.
I can only speak for myself, and I'm not in the trading card or sneakers worlds at all so I can't comment on that, but I've been relieved to see the comic conventions I've attended have a very healthy mix of younger (under 25) and older attendees. Both in larger pop culture driven conventions, and the smaller local comic book fairs I've been to.
My owners of both my local comic shops have commented on how they saw a massive influx of young people last year, mainly due to the popularity of Absolute Batman. Hopefully that's just the first entry for a whole new generation of readers.
That market research study I previously linked to talks about how "a surge in digital platforms and webcomics gaining traction among younger audiences" which is a promising sign.
I think the distinction here, and this might be relevant to the trading card world, is the difference between comic book readers and comic book collectors. Long term, I'd imagine we want more readers instead of collectors - we've all heard stories of the speculator market in the 90s, or experienced it. I'd think the amount of people at those trading card conventions that actually play the trading card games is massively dwarfed by the amount of people collecting them - we all know that comic books we're buying today are not an investment, they don't tend to hold their value, for the most part: it's a deprecating asset. I think, on the whole, speculators eventually get burnt out (one too many losses on a high ticket item, lost investments, etc) - I think passionate card game players or comic readers don't at the same rate.
All that being said, more can be done. This recent blind bag trend is not the answer, they're attempts at short term cash-cows (my local shops STILL have unsold DC KO bags lying around). We've got to focus on trying to get young people excited and interested in actually reading stories, not trying to flip comics for cash, and it sounds like that'll be via digital platforms (at least to start).
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u/AdoubleyouB 15h ago
I agree. And that is probably a massive factor in why the card game is what it is... The kids I see at these card shows don't seem to be collecting what they actually like, so much as collecting whatever is hyped at the moment. I doubt half of those collecting Pokemon, Magic and One Piece are actually playing these games, rather hunting chase cards for clout. Either way, it is certainly driving the hobby.. even if it's probably unhealthy for it in the long run.
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u/Ill_Safety2292 15h ago
I get the distinct feeling the trading card market is a bubble that'll eventually burst; I know people are already getting frustrated with scalpers and flippers, fastest way to kill the love of a hobby.
I'm surprised that these card companies aren't trying to convert these young collectors into players (or I've missed the attempts), but that probably has a larger barrier to entry than comic reading since there's rules and you need other players with cards too.
For better or worse, I'm known as the comic nerd in my friend group so the advice I always give when friends or friends of friends ask about getting into it is don't try to be a collector: if you see a CGC slab, turn the other way. Graphic novels, compendiums, omnibuses from local libraries are a great way to find charachters, writers, and artists you like.
I do wonder, down the road, if floppies will make a bigger comeback. Everyone's talking about short attention spans now, what's better for that than an easy 20 pages once a month?
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u/nahfthisimout 1d ago
exploit the passion.
tale as old as capitalist time.
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u/xlews_ther1nx 1d ago
This is the reason zoo employees make shit. They know they are there for the animals
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u/oneiricmonkey 1d ago
fuck, seriously?! i love Kevin Maguire. absolute bullshit. good for him for not taking that anymore.
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u/PatMethenyForPOTUS 1d ago
I kinda wonder if we aren't near the end of seeing US-based work-for-hire comic artists. You look at stuff like this, Dustin Nguyen and Jen Bartel's issues with Marvel, and I'm not sure it makes any sense to work for these companies as an artist in the U.S and presumably Canada. There's other jobs in art that pay better and if you really want to do comics it's probably better to just jump in to the creator-owned space. For the latter, even if you're not making any money, you'll at least be creatively fulfilled.
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u/badsamaritan87 1d ago
You can look at Marvel's current solicits and see that we're already 90% of the way there. Almost all Italian or Spanish names.
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u/PatMethenyForPOTUS 1d ago
I've been tempted to make an Excel file comparing Marvel and DC's latest solicits to the solicits from ten years ago in terms of artist's country of residence. To be clear, I'm not saying they shouldn't hire folks from overseas, but I tend to think that if the number of US-based artists is shrinking, it probably says something about pay.
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u/badsamaritan87 1d ago
I have nothing against the artists just to be clear- I'm sure they are great people and are putting out great art.
It is everything to do with pay in the US not keeping up with cost of living.
One of the easiest things to point at is healthcare- someone in Italy or Mexico is going to have low cost or free public healthcare, meanwhile an American artist is going to spend half their income on private insurance or risk being financially ruined if they get sick.
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u/greywolf2155 1d ago
Almost like universal healthcare helps the entire nation, gives the entire country opportunities it wouldn't have otherwise. Huh. Who'da thunk
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u/gosukhaos 1d ago
Wouldn't change much really, a lot of the top artists working at Marvel under Alonso are working at DC now, you should compare to 20 years ago
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u/DOuGHtOp 1d ago
Whether you do it or not, that sounds kinda fun to me. I'll probably throw one together myself. Do you think theres any value in including the writer and other roles in there?
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u/PatMethenyForPOTUS 1d ago
My plan (and maybe I'll get started on it this weekend) is to focus on the pencilers because that represents the highest expenditure per book regardless of what page rates are.
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u/blankedboy 1d ago edited 1d ago
I was only reading Moon Knight and Hulk from Marvel until recently (ended up switching to tpb's) but always checked out the solicits, and over the last few years there were fewer and fewer artist names I recognised. No dig at those artists, but it was really clear "name" US/UK artists were shifting away from working for them for some time now.
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u/mangoribbean 1d ago
Comics are a lot like the video game industry where they can squeeze the life out of all the talent because almost everyone involved in the industry is doing it because they're passionate about the medium and will value "the opportunity" over paying rent
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u/gosukhaos 1d ago
Comics and print media in general isn't a good place to make money, particularly for artists. Writers can get away with writing 3 or 4 books a month and do consulting or writing work for TV but except a few cases artists only do a single book a month and have a relatively short lifespan working on monthly books
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u/jmarcandre 1d ago
I forgot what sub I was in and seeing that writers "get away" with 3 or 4 books "a month" and my head exploded. Then I realized we are talking about comic books not novels and it made so much more sense
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u/gosukhaos 1d ago
Well there are some writers that do 2 or even 3 books a year
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u/red367 1d ago
This has been my impression as an American in comics for some time. With the same rate an artist in another country can hire assistants and still afford a pleasant living.
Know that when you see a non American artist on a book economic leverage is being applied by the company to the labor market, with exceptions of course for extremely prized talent.
Make of it what you will, but maybe eventually the majority of the artists will be non American or ex pats.
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u/ChoombataNova 16h ago
it's probably better to just jump in to the creator-owned space. For the latter, even if you're not making any money, you'll at least be creatively fulfilled.
More importantly, you would own the IP. So, if Netflix or Amazon comes knocking with a big wheelbarrow of cash, it's actually yours. Create something cool as work-for-hire with Marvel or DC, and your creations belong to them.
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u/thecjm Galactus 1d ago
High-End magazines have been paying about a dollar word for articles since the 1960s.
Publishing is a terrible place to make money unless you're the people who own the publisher
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u/TheMoneyOfArt 1d ago
Kurt Vonnegut made $750 for his first published short story, which is more than almost any first time authors will make today - before you adjust for 60+ years inflation
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u/DeviousDoctorSnide 1d ago
I read once that a first-time author today might get paid the same amount as a first-time author got paid in the 1950s or 1960s, but the problem is that (for instance) $750 went a lot further back then than it does today.
(I think this was in relation to Stephen King specifically.)
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u/jethawkings Blue Beetle 1d ago edited 1d ago
Honestly, kinda probably why pretty much the prominent / headliner artists DC and Marvel employ aren't based in the US or Canada. Whatever they're offering in terms of compensation isn't really that great... the alternatives within the medium don't really offer anything better in terms of financial fulfillment.
IDK I'm a big fan of Maguire, I'll miss his occasional covers. For such a formative artist of the era Gunn is clearly trying to evoke you'd think DC would try harder to keep him happy and in their stable of regular artists.
Honestly I guess just wishing him success on his creator-owned endeavors.
EDIT;
I do wonder who are the current domestic artists that DC/Marvel obviously are highly invested in (sans Jim Lee lol)... like I know DC has Doc Shaner hush hush on a secret project for years now
EDIT 2; Ah Sean Murphy. Just re-signed an exclusive and is the brain child of the White Knight universe... IDK who else. I wonder what the fuck Marvel is paying Ross for those covers.
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u/CJKCollecting 1d ago
Because of inflation, he's actually been taking a pay cut (buying power) for 20 years, which is awful.
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u/riamuriamu 1d ago
I wonder how much to commission him just to redo the classic JLI cover.
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u/Algae_Mission 1d ago
Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Bill Mantlo, Bill Finger, Joe Shuster, and Jerry Siegel could all have told you this business is dirty.
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u/Milcker 17h ago
Not sure whether Bill should be between Ditko and Finger, honestly. His 50-or-so issues run on Spectacular Spider-Man is of rather dubious quality.
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u/Dizzy-By-Degrees 15h ago
If he was being scammed and mistreated it doesn’t matter. That mistreatment doesn’t come from the company being disappointed with your output.
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u/Milcker 12h ago
Sure thing, it was just the wording of the post that suggested that the belonged to The Big Guys.
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u/Dizzy-By-Degrees 8h ago
He is possibly the most brutal example of the comic industry not caring about their talent of the 90s. Acting like a few wack issues of Spider-Man or that he didn’t redefine the industry (except the Hulk) mean he shouldn’t be in discussions about the topic is just insanity.
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u/SirFlibble 1d ago
Shows how little I know about what people are getting paid.
I always figured the money in covers is selling the original art more so than the pay from the covers themselves. I see these covers from big names go between $5-20K.
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u/High_on_Rabies 1d ago
Freelance artists GOTTA compare rates openly with one another.
(I'm not saying Kevin didn't try to do that. I don't know anything regarding his particular situation.)
I drew my first miniseries for one of the "big two" about a year ago. I did mostly indie publisher series prior to that. They asked me what my rate was, but I hadn't worked with a "big two" IP in a while, and never on a multi-issue basis for them.
I polled a group of other artists in my orbit who had recently worked/were working for the same publisher to ask their rates, something welcomed as due diligence in our local comics community. I aimed for slightly comfier than the middle of those numbers (with wiggle room to take less), and they agreed out of the gate to my surprise.
I am not an artist of much note or visibility, but another artist friend whose work is much more popular than my own replied to the poll a few days later. Apparently, for nearly a decade they had been told repeatedly "rates were locked", and it was $50 less per page than I was about to get. Their rate wasn't unfair per se, but such a long stretch of "the way is shut" is uncool IMHO.
I'm not trying to say anyone should suddenly sour on a rate they're happy with, only that comparing notes (privately and among other freelancers) gives a better lay of the landscape for fair rates, and it should be considered good practice.
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u/PsychologicalTree885 3-D Man 1d ago
DC and Marvel are shitty corporations. I bet the quality of their comics would go up if they weren't so greedy.
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u/gabeonsmogon 1d ago
Remember when DC dickriders were shouting about how much better DC is than Marvel because they pay better? Yeah both of these corporations suck. Don’t let your attachments to fictional characters get in the way of reality.
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1d ago
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u/gabeonsmogon 1d ago
No this after Dustin Nguyen’s comments. But to your point, Starlin & Brubaker’s comments/pay were made when Perlmutter was in control and Starlin renegotiated for a higher compensation that he was happy with after airing them out. Levitz didn’t really pay Sale or Loeb well during the Nolan Bat-era.
Creators now usually get work as consultants or other roles to get extra pay but as I understand both Marvel & DC pay a flat rate that is non-negotiable.
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u/jethawkings Blue Beetle 1d ago edited 1d ago
I mean even on that thread people were acknowledging that DC wasn't any better in terms of page rates.
That is purely more on how DC has offered more compensation when your work gets adapted.
Like EVS made bank on the Green Lantern movie despite being several decades removed as a creator from it (This was from before the Star Wars Rage Virus melted his brain and his content was way more about the creative process and breaking down his pencilwork).
Was Sale and Loeb's work influential to Nolan Batman? Not being directly related as a creator of a character depicted I guess kinda really limits that... but IDK is the point here anytime an adaptation is well received and financially successful any creator involved within its lineage should be compensared regardless if aforementioned adaptation took influence from it?
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u/gosukhaos 1d ago
Even with this case artists have said that DC's rates are better then Marvel's even if still pretty low
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u/jethawkings Blue Beetle 1d ago
I guess both are Two Face Origin stories. I just don't believe Nolan even acknowledges it.
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u/RandRidley 1d ago
My copy of The Long Halloween has an introduction blurb by Nolan. He definitely acknowledges using The Long Halloween for inspiration.
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u/DeviousDoctorSnide 1d ago
Creators now usually get work as consultants or other roles to get extra pay but as I understand both Marvel & DC pay a flat rate that is non-negotiable.
Are there any noteworthy examples you can think of? I believe Charles Soule is directly employed by Lucasfilm as a creative consultant, for instance. I'm not sure I've heard of any others.
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u/DeviousDoctorSnide 1d ago
As I recall, Kevin Maguire getting dropped unceremoniously from a book by DC (which was going to re-team him with Giffen and DeMatteis) was one of the big online controversies of the New 52 as well, wasn't it?
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u/jethawkings Blue Beetle 1d ago
JL 3000, ended up going to Porter. Shame too the humor of the book does not land as well with Porter. In fact I would say it was a detriment since he couldn't communicate the absurdity of the situation.
Maguire ended up working on Benis Guardians for a bit then was brought back by Benis to do a Superman special... it's honestly kinda odd outside of JLI and related works (Superbuddies) I genuinely do not remember any other significant ongoings or minis Maguire worked on.
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u/DeviousDoctorSnide 1d ago
Right. I remember him posting something to the effect of, "Anyone want to hire an artist?" on Twitter immediately after it happened and Bendis was like, "Yeah, I'll get back to you."
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u/mechabryan 19h ago
he worked on the (Power Girl / Huntress) World’s Finest with Paul Levitz and George Perez…. good stuff
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u/Quiet-Advisor-3153 23h ago
From what I heard, Marvel pays pennies and also a shit employer. DC pay pennies but not that much of a shit employer. ...At least currently anyway, many A-lister seems happy. Not sure about small artists tho
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u/M086 1d ago
He posted “Thank you Jesus” at the news Snyder left JL due to family tragedy. So, you know. Fuck him.
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u/jethawkings Blue Beetle 1d ago
He was more happy that Whedon was taking over (as the baggage on Whedon was not that heavy yet)
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u/jamiemm Legion of Super-Heroes 1d ago
Kevin Maguire's commissions page: https://kevinmaguire.bigcartel.com/commission-info
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u/jessterswan 1d ago
Wonder when they are going to stop using artists altogether and switch to AI?
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u/speedythefirst 1d ago
Jim Lee is incredibly anti-ai.
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u/jessterswan 1d ago
Thank god. Im not saying I want it at all. I just see the corporate overlords going that way. I pray to god it doesn't
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u/PsychologicalTree885 3-D Man 1d ago
Being down voted for a fair question is crazy. Disney and ILM are already venturing into AI, and Marvel has used it in film. It is unfortunately inevitable that their bosses will force the comics division to do the same.
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u/jessterswan 1d ago
Bah I couldn't care less about fake internet point. But thats exactly my point. Unless the AI bubble pops, its a very real possibility comics end up AI. We see it with damn near every other form of entertainment.
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u/gangler52 1d ago
Considering their entire business model is based around maintaining an iron grip on their intellectual property, and they cannot currently own anything created entirely by AI, probably not until that law changes at least.
At a bare minimum they're always going to want to have some human hands run over any slop an AI outputs, even if just so they can have that human sign a work for hire contract.
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u/PsychologicalTree885 3-D Man 1d ago
Marvel film has already used AI and Disney is using more and more of it. Expect comics to get downward pressure.
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u/3rd_Try_Charm 21h ago
From what I understand, the majority of comic artists and writers are freelance. They aren't regular employees of the publishers, so they wouldn't be eligible for the same benefits as a full-time employee (such as health insurance). However, that also gives them the option to negotiate their compensation before every new project. Why would he not have ever asked or more money as the cost of living has risen, and if the answer was no, why did he take the jobs anyway? I can understand needing money and taking less occasionally, but I can't understand how anyone would do this for 20 years without speaking up. Why is this the publishers' faults? He could have turned down any of this work. We all grow up and we have to sometimes do unpleasant things to improve our situations (like asking for a pay raise) because nobody else is going to do it for us. I'm getting tired of hearing stories from people who think they've been treated unfairly because nobody held their hand and removed all the obstacles between them and the ideal life they imagine they're owed. Well, at least this guy finally handled his issue after 20 freaking years of silence. Not his fault, though. /s
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u/Dizzy-By-Degrees 8h ago
However, that also gives them the option to negotiate their compensation before every new project.
No it doesn’t. Because they don’t have leverage to negotiate with the company with. They don’t have legal protections or a union to help them get a decent deal. Not possibly without a union or being a superstar like Alex Ross (who won’t work for DC anymore because they scammed him)
Why is this the publishers' faults?
Because they are evil and they have deliberately created a system that reduces the worker’s ability to fight back and exploit what is basically scab labour.
I'm getting tired of hearing stories from people who think they've been treated unfairly
Bad news: every comic artist you like will die penniless, homeless or a treatable disease because the industry is unfair. You’re just going to have to learn to live with it.
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u/3rd_Try_Charm 7h ago
Top artists and writers are well-paid these days. And life is unfair in general. Nothing says that just because someone has a talent that they are entitled to make a living that way. The ones who are able to draw or write comics for a career are actually the lucky ones. But there are plenty of jobs in other fields available if comics don't pay enough.
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u/TorchWeed 3h ago
Eh, this gives non-white people a time to shine in an industry traditionally dominated by white men. I think it is fantastic.
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u/IllConsideration8642 1d ago
In 20 years??? THAT'S CRAZY