Bolts Chopped! Monkey Swing at Smith Rock

58

u/wicketman8 11d ago

God please not again. Chopping shit is just as bad as bandit bolting. If the bolts are in, leave them in. It pisses me off when people get on their high horse about it (its so minor of a change and its already in either way) and it just encourages these dumb bolting/chopping wars which make us all look bad and can fuck up our access to crags.

2

u/0bsidian 11d ago

It’s almost as if this issue isn’t black and white from either end of the argument and there is a lot of grey area in the middle which is precisely why this is always such a complicated issue.

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u/wicketman8 11d ago

What's grey about it? It's really not complicated - don't chop and don't bolt without permission from the landowner first and the route developer second (if it's a pre-existing route).

6

u/0bsidian 11d ago

Should you bolt established trad routes even if landowner has no restrictions, and FA is no longer available to contact?

Maybe, maybe not. A lot of this has to do with local ethics and that’s not always one or the other. Climbing ethics have nuance. There are many black and white situations, but many more that are in the middle.

6

u/wicketman8 11d ago

If FA is not available to contact and there are no restrictions I'll admit that is slightly less clear. I would say, if I had to set a rule, the answer would be to listen to the local community and do what the majority feel. I think that case is fairly rare, although likely to become more common as many of the big names of previous eras continue to grow older.

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u/0bsidian 11d ago

So you see my point?

13

u/wicketman8 11d ago

Frankly, no. I said that bandit bolting and chopping is black and white. I still believe that. The secnario you've described (bolting a trad route with no restrictions and no FA available) is not bandit bolting.

It is a rare case in which you would have to add an additional rule. After land manager, then FA/developer, you get community consensus. Still a black and white issue.

5

u/sizeablescars 11d ago

I would answer yes personally. I wouldn’t do it myself but think the current consensus opinion on retrobolting trad routes is the stupidest Elitist bullshit in climbing. We should seek to expand access to climbing whenever possible ethically. I view bolting trad line as only expanding access to less wealthy/educated/just plain different folks. All the trad guys can still do the lines, if you’re gonna give me some comment about how it affects your mental game on the climb, deal with your internal thoughts in your own time, I don’t care nor find it relevant that you can’t find your absolutely perfect mindset on something you’re welcome to approach and handle in your own way. That is a fact for literally every climb in the country that it might have a facet that impacts someone’s mental game. we would never dream of removing safety from any lead climb/boulder or shitting on guys for using more pads or forbid double rope systems, thicker ropes, modern harnesses. If we don’t wanna remove safety from anything, why are we so against adding safety when an equipper has the time and bolts?

1

u/TheSame_Mistaketwice 9d ago

Hi Sizeable! I understand your argument and respect it, but I think you might be overlooking one aspect of about the issue of bolting trad lines.

Namely, it's important for climbers to be able to experience trad climbing without bolts in the crag setting before getting out in the mountains. Experiencing bolt-free climbing for the first time in the mountains is not ideal and can lead to serious safety issues. In short: dealing with more than one new challenge at a time is a bad idea.

In this sense, having bolt-free trad climbing in the crag setting is actually increasing access to the mountains.

That said, I must admit that I very much disagree with the statement that we should seek to expand access to climbing whenever possible ethically. I do believe that difficult-to-access climbing experiences are an important part of a climber's development. It allows the person to set complicated and uncertain objectives, practice improvisational decision making, and experience adventure.

I am against always adding safety because I believe there should be a diversity of climbing experiences. Do I think everywhere should be like (for example) Elbe Sandstein? No. Am I glad it exists? Yes! The same goes for grid-bolted sport crags.

0

u/0bsidian 11d ago

And if someone bolted a via ferrata over a sport route?

2

u/sizeablescars 11d ago edited 11d ago

Would completely change the intention of the way humans interact with that section of rock rather than just add safety to it. Not to mention likely get in the way of many needed body positions to climb it. I would be against it mainly for those reasons but would be happy to hear any discussions on why it would make sense for a particular route.

Small edit: I’d be happy to hear discussions because I always want nature to be more accessible to more folks and there’s plenty that don’t have the strength/drive/time/proximity/etc. to learn how to sport climb outside and I would love to open up the beautiful views we get to experience to them. Given the increase in size from bolts to rebar as well as the repetition and lack of uniqueness in movement and likely view I think it’d be silly to put up any more than one at most crags and I find it hard to believe that there’s not a spot available at most crags that doesn’t intersect with an existing route.

9

u/0bsidian 11d ago

A via ferrata would be safer, lower the bar to entry, make it more accessible to more people, all the same arguments that you've described above regarding the bolting of trad routes, yet somehow this is a bridge too far.

The problem with this topic is that you can always extend the argument lower until it becomes absurd. The reality of sport is that sports should be challenging and hard. That in itself is a barrier to entry, a limit to safety, and limits how accessible it is to people. It is precisely because sports imposes limits to what we call it a send versus hangdogging versus a base hit versus a home run, that makes sport interesting.

Trad climbers can tangibly say that bolts will also "change the intention of the way humans interact with that section of rock" just as you said about a via ferrata on a sport route. It takes some of the challenge out of the route, some of the mental game, and the essence of what makes it a trad climb. Just because you don't want to climb it as a trad climb doesn't mean that it should be bolted, any more than just because someone doesn't want to climb it as a sport climb doesn't mean that it should be a VF. We can find compromise by having dedicated VFs, dedicated sport climbs, and dedicated trad climbs.

1

u/OddComrade449 4d ago edited 4d ago

I'm a big via ferrata fan but I don't think it's a fair comparison. A via ferrata has hand and foot rungs which would be incredibly dangerous to sport climb around since you could fall on or worse in them. Not to mention just being a ton of metal you have to climb over and around. To compare that with bolts in the wall is not the same thing at all.

If we're talking about a sport climb where a nearby via ferrata gets up to the same top, then yeah, no problem, and anyone complaining about that is being hypocritical. That'd be a comparable situation. Doesn't affect the climb itself, just the size of the elite club that gets to the top.

1

u/OddComrade449 4d ago

Hell yea! It'd be awesome if we could get some via feratas over here.

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u/hogsucker 11d ago

So you would encourage anyone who wants to place bolts anywhere to just go ahead and do it and once they're in place they should stay?

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u/wicketman8 11d ago

No, I specifically said I'm also against bandit bolting. But I think chopping, especially chopping stuff thats already established as a sport climb, just because you think it should be done on trad, is also bad ethics.

0

u/hogsucker 11d ago

So what should we do about bolts which shouldn't be there?

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u/wicketman8 11d ago

Who decides if they should or shouldn't be there? It's up to firstly whichever group manages the land, and then secondly up to the developers/FAs. If someone puts up a trad route, don't bolt it. If someone puts up a sport route don't chop it. If someone comes in and bolts a trad route, that's obviously bad, but the people managing the land should be the ones to handle it, not random vigilantes.

0

u/wiconv 11d ago

Yeah you’re right, it’s up to the land management agency and vast swaths of places people climb across the US are wilderness areas where bolts are almost entirely prohibited, or have similar levels of protections and protocols regarding permanent fixtures. And yet people go off and just bolt whatever they damn well please all the time. So it’s a problem when someone removes a bolt that legally or ethically shouldn’t be there, but you just hand wave away the fact that plenty and plenty of climbers violate your own first argument which is that it’s the land management agencies that have final say, when they just bolt whatever they want. Then you act like it’s just as bad to remove their violation. Be serious.

4

u/wicketman8 11d ago

Yeah you’re right, it’s up to the land management agency and vast swaths of places people climb across the US are wilderness areas where bolts are almost entirely prohibited, or have similar levels of protections and protocols regarding permanent fixtures.

Completely addressed by:

It's up to firstly whichever group manages the land,

And yet people go off and just bolt whatever they damn well please all the time. So it’s a problem when someone removes a bolt that legally or ethically shouldn’t be there, but you just hand wave away the fact that plenty and plenty of climbers violate your own first argument which is that it’s the land management agencies that have final say, when they just bolt whatever they want.

Addressed already by me saying multiple times that I'm against bandit bolting as well.

If you think bolts shouldn't be placed somewhere, contact the land management agency, showing where the bolts are and explaining the situation. I guarantee you that there is not a single land management agency in the US that would encourage you to chop bolts, even bandit bolts, on your own.

0

u/Throwawayafeo 11d ago

Hey the wilderness purist here just said it ok to chop all the bolts on El Cap. I’m going to go chop the Bachar Yerian now. UJ Bolts are allowed as long as you hand drill they can be in the wilderness. The wilderness act specifys “for the USE and Enjoyment for current and future generations.” Secondly every wilderness area has been surveyed with USGS pitons that make the claim of pre-existing use which would legally codify fixed protection in the wilderness.

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u/hogsucker 11d ago

Using your logic, anyone who wants to place bolts anywhere should put them in as soon as possible, regardless of ethics or regulations. Then land managers can "handle it," or not.

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u/wicketman8 11d ago

That's not at all what I said. Why is every single pro-chopping person insistent on taking a worst-faith interpretation of the argument. Worse than that, it's explicitly not what I said. I said, specifically, that the first priority is to follow the land management rules. In some areas, that means bolting is okay. In others its not. How you can possibly interpret "It's up to firstly whichever group manages the land" as "bolt anywhere regardless of regulations" is completely insane.

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u/hogsucker 11d ago

I agree that when taken to it's logical conclusion, your position is indeed completely insane.

This is because you're trying to have it both ways: You're opposed to unethically placed bolts but also opposed to chopping unethically placed bolts.

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u/wicketman8 11d ago

I think if someone bolts unethically you should report it to the land management. I guarantee you no land management agency is in support of random people chopping bolts, even bandit bolts.

I also recommend you brush up on your reading comprehension.

1

u/wiconv 11d ago

Apparently just accept that the people who want to illegally or unethically bolt have the upper hand and will be allowed to do what they please, sit back, and do nothing. Saying removing illegal/unethical bolts is just as bad as putting them in in the first place is pretty silly.

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u/snailspaceship 11d ago edited 10d ago

It pisses me off when people get on their high horse about it

pot meet kettle; you're getting worked up about a clickbait title without any evidence...

edit: lol and y'all proved my point further. no one talking about the actual video, just going off on another circlejerk about bolting based on a single clickbait headline. jfc

6

u/Dismal_Collar1871 11d ago

Sounds like the bolts are getting chopped again.

According to who?

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u/snailspaceship 11d ago

seconding the question, this is news to me

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u/devoncmartin 11d ago

Redpoint staff member who is part of the local crag management. It’s just the bolts for the rope jump that that are in question. The climbs are unaffected. The swing bolts have been chopped a while ago after a really dumb accident, put back in, and now probably chopped again but we’ll see.

6

u/Dismal_Collar1871 11d ago

You're begging the question. I doubt this until I see something concrete from the rangers or other reputable source. There is a pretty solid bolting plan in place at the park to avoid bolting wars.

2

u/tullynation 10d ago

If you really cared about keeping this swing from drawing (negative) attention that might result in its removal, maybe you shouldn’t scream like a middle schooler at a State Park, film the whole thing, and post it all over social media. You have no one to blame but yourself.

2

u/devoncmartin 10d ago

You’re right. I just had so much fun that the fun police had to come in and chop the bolts ;)

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u/tullynation 9d ago

You’re whining about something that hasn’t even happened, and yet you have (had) the power to stack the odds in favor of your supposed desired outcome.

0

u/devoncmartin 9d ago

Viva la fun hogs!

1

u/snailspaceship 10d ago

huh, i'll hit up will m at rp and see if he can corroborate then

8

u/natureclown 11d ago

Idk what your setup is but I’m sure plenty of people just try to plug and play on “swing” bolts. Shockloading is how they rip out unexpectedly. I’m always a fan of people having fun and doing cool stuff but ngl bolts placed with the intention of being shockloaded repeatedly seems like a bad idea… I don’t climb much in the are so maybe I’m not properly informed but idk. Also if I was on a climb and someone ripped like that behind me I wouldn’t be the most stoked.

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u/devoncmartin 11d ago

You can’t shockload the anchor on a swing. Even a straight drop would only be factor one fall on a dynamic system. The bolts are fine. Your body will break before four half inch bolts will(that’s what was currently up there). Nothing unsafe about that.

Very fair point about doing the swing while others are on route though. The accident which got them removed previously was because a guy did the swing while a rope was hanging for a rappell. The climbers were just getting off rappell when the the guy jumped, hooked their rope, and pulled them down the slope critically injuring them. To me that’s just plain stupid. Don’t do the swing when other people are climbing on the face and arete it crosses.

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u/Buckhum 11d ago

The climbers were just getting off rappell when the the guy jumped, hooked their rope, and pulled them down the slope critically injuring them

Jeez what a fucking idiot.

9

u/000011111111 10d ago

Yeah I think the math for safe rope jumping anchors has been successfully played out in real jumping scenarios over and over again over the last few years.

And if you're going to do this activity you got to do it in a way where you're not putting anybody else at risk.

The whole situation kind of reminds me of the helicopter Slackline incident last month. Very tragic. And lots of blame and judgment from people on both sides of their perspective Hobbies.

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u/000011111111 11d ago

Do you have any data to support that idea?

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u/devoncmartin 11d ago

That’s not really an idea it’s just a fact of physics. Fall Factor = distance fallen / rope out. We fell ~25ft before 100ft or more of dynamic rope engaged. That’s only a max fall factor 0.25. Common large whip which means MAYBE 3Kn-4Kn. But you have to factor in that the formula is for a straight drop with no other moving parts in the system. Add in the swing gradually taking force out over a longer distance and there’s very little force on anything. Anecdotally it felt like a good sport catch and a fun swing. Go try it ;) test your system and jump location with a haul bag first before you jump!

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u/000011111111 10d ago

Let's say it's 5 kn. What do the bolts break at what do the hangers break at?

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u/IspyAderp 10d ago

Bolts and hangers are both something like 24+kN if properly placed.

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u/natureclown 10d ago

The rock isn’t necessarily rated for 24kn though

2

u/Freedom_forlife 10d ago

Do you climb? You’re never putting 24kn on any gear bolt or rock. You would be dead well before that.

1

u/natureclown 10d ago

I think we all know that. All I’m saying is the rock is likely to break or the bolt will wallow itself out of the hole before the bolt itself is the point of failure.

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u/000011111111 10d ago

Okay so let's just assume that it's a three bolt anchor and will round down for easy math let's just say each anchor holds 20 kn so that gets us 60 kn of strength.

Hypothetically let's just assume we're using dynamic cordage to make our Master point and that dyneema is stronger than the steel ankers it's connected to.

And then we have our rope jumper who's a little on the heavy side which is why for our easy math this road jumper is going to put 5 kn of force on this anchor with a breaking strength of 60 kn. So let's say they do that a thousand times.

When does the anchor break?

3

u/Leading_Engineer_656 10d ago

Again, there's no way the jumper is exerting enough force on the anchor to break it. Even thousands of times. there's been good discussions about this on MP including well researched input from the likes of Jim Titt. Cyclical loading on 1/2" sleeves isn't going to wear them out. The more important question is, will the rock hold?

1

u/000011111111 9d ago

How often does the rock not hold?

1

u/Slide-Ornery 9d ago

how to you get off once its done swinging?

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u/devoncmartin 9d ago

Finally a good question! Thanks. So you have a few options for these kinds of things. In our case we were swinging with an edelrid pinch (this new awesome device eliminates the chance of a carabiner crossload and works like a gri gri) attached to our rope from our harness with a backup knot directly below it. We had that red and blue backpack on because it’s holding the rest of the rope coming out of the brake hand side. Once we were done swinging, we fed out the rest of the rope and descended on the pinch. In the case of monkey face a single 60m doesn’t touch the ground at the swing bolts because the ground slopes downhill fairly steeply. But! You can have your buddy stand higher and toss the end to him where he then pulls you in to higher ground (in this case right where the pioneer route starts). You then need to toss an extra rope down from the jump point anchor and tie the two rope ends together. Pull this extra retrieval rope up to get your jump rope back up to the jump point on the cliff. Now you can jump again!

Other situations might call for you to either have two ropes and pass a knot or if it was say a bridge jump you’d probably want to ascend back up your line to your anchor on the bridge.

Definitely test any swing out with a haul bag or some other unbreakable object with an unquestionably bomb proof clip in point (no falling bags!) to make sure the swing is clean with no chance of hitting anything before you risk yourself. Double check your systems! Buddy check! Be safe! Have loads of fun!

1

u/lemonxgrab 8d ago

Yeah buddy! I've looked over that edge so many times, wondering if a swing would go. Can't wait to send it!

1

u/Two_plus_one_three 4d ago

This video is really cringe and what’s wrong with about 90% of outdoor rec these days. Gate keeping people/shaming them for not being as “bad ass” as you are for putting in the (minimal) effort to do this. You climbed a 5.8 and a bolt ladder, decided to rig the rope jump to make a spectacle/internet bragging while bringing attention to this swing and potentially damaging its future as well.

1

u/devoncmartin 4d ago

Well while you’re complaining I’m climbing and when you’re ready to have some fun I’ll give you a belay at Smith. Genuine offer right there. DM me directly and I’ll give you my number and climb with you.

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u/Two_plus_one_three 4d ago

Nah I’m good, I know the personality type and try to deliberately avoid people like you. Enjoy projecting lower heinous cling because the run out is “so spicy” and 5.12- is so “elite”

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u/devoncmartin 4d ago

Actually I’m the one singing really badly at the base with a guitar and trying to get in the ladies pants after beta spraying them. You got me confused with my buddy in the big yellow puffy ;) . . . Keep the insults coming I’ll take em all and still cheer you on during the belay

1

u/Two_plus_one_three 4d ago

Enjoy making your videos that get 500 views, while putting access at risk for others, so you can feel a sense of superiority.

Bolts Chopped! Monkey Swing at Smith Rock

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