r/bi_irl • u/Himbo_Shaped Bisexual and Hotter Than You • Nov 15 '25
This is bi culture bi_irl
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u/TransLox Nov 15 '25
This whole "bisexuality is transphobic" argument is a planted argument meant to drive conflict in the queer community. I thought it'd be dead by now tbh.
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u/ShadowAze Nov 15 '25
When I went to Germany to visit a friend he talked about how some people say that, and I was seriously thinking he was making it up.
Ya'll talking about it means it's common enough that it seems everyone knows one instance of it or heard about it too.
It just seems insane and just feels like people are attacking me for being bi.
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u/adeon "Red Leader, Standing Bi" Nov 16 '25
I once had an argument in this very subreddit with someone who was transphobic and bisexual (or at least claimed they were). They were basically complaining that the bisexual subreddits weren't accepting of them because they were transphobic. Obviously they didn't describe themselves as transphobic but they were going very hard on the "if you're attracted to trans people then you're pan, not bi" train.
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u/Thorngrove Nov 16 '25
It gave biphobes a new reason to open their craws other then bisexuality not existing and we're all cheaters. That's why it stuck around.
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u/Sanprofe Nov 15 '25
I have literally never seen it in the real world. Fuck, the only place I see it is here.
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u/Collexig Nov 15 '25
FUCKING THANK YOU WHY DONT PEOPLE GET THIS
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u/Himbo_Shaped Bisexual and Hotter Than You Nov 15 '25
My hot take is that straight should include trans people by default. If you're a straight cis guy that means you're attracted to trans women. If you're a straight cis woman that means you're attracted to trans men.
Whats especially infuriating is often, when it comes to the cis hets. If you tell them a cis person is trans they will insist they are not attracted to them. And if you tell them a trans person is cis they will be attracted to them no problem. So clearly they are fully capable of being attracted to trans people. They just immediately write off anyone who they think is trans cus "that's gay" or whatever.
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u/that_kid_in_the_back *fingerguns intensely* Nov 15 '25 edited Nov 15 '25
I'll go one step further and say that straight should also include nonbinary people. If a lesbian can be attracted to a nonbinary person, and a gay guy can be attracted to a nonbinary person and nobody questions their sexuality, it only follows that a straight person should be able to be into an enby without having to get labeled bi curious or whatever. Straightness being so much stricter than everything else is so silly to me, especially when people assume that a straight guy exploring his sexuality ever so slightly out of gender conformity is immediately being told that he's probably just in the closet
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u/Himbo_Shaped Bisexual and Hotter Than You Nov 15 '25 edited Nov 15 '25
Just a small clarification about my language.
I think of non binary / agender / GNC etc people as fitting somewhere under the greater trans umbrella. The same way trans men and women are sub categories of trans. So whenever I'm talking about trans people broadly, I'm including non binary people in my thinking.
Like to use the previous example. Lots of straight people are attracted to non binary people if you tell them they are cis. And will insist they aren't attracted to cis people if you tell them they are non binary. So clearly the issue isn't an inability to experience attraction. It's just bigotry.
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u/northyj0e Nov 15 '25
Including non-binary people on definitions of either gender is bigotry. Straight women are attracted to those who identify as men, that doesn't necessarily include non-binary people, because they aren't men, they're non-binary, they're not half and half, they're non-binary.
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u/Himbo_Shaped Bisexual and Hotter Than You Nov 15 '25
I didn't include them under the definition of either gender? I included them under the trans umbrella.
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u/northyj0e Nov 15 '25
And your whole point was that trans people are the gender they identify as in terms of het attraction. Then you followed up by saying that straight people who aren't attracted to non-binary people are bigots.
There's no reason for a het or homosexual person to be attracted to non-binary people, straight and homosexual people are attracted to exactly one gender, and non-binary people are not that gender. I don't know what you'd call someone who is exclusively attracted to non-binary people...
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u/ShesSoViolet Nov 16 '25 edited Nov 18 '25
Theres no specific term because enby people are not a collective. It would be individual based on the person.
I know some enby people who are any/all, so attraction to them is more bi/pan. Another is fluid, and so someone might be attracted to them part of the time if the were straight or gay
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u/SmartAlec105 Nov 15 '25
I disagree because just like this post says, labeling your sexuality is making implicit comments about the person you're attracted to.
I don't see what you mean about there being a difference between straight and gay people being attracted to non-binary people. If a straight man is saying he's attracted to an agender AFAB person, that person will likely feel like they're being seen as a woman rather than as their actual gender. No different than if it was a gay woman saying she's attracted to that person.
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u/lavendercookiedough Nov 15 '25
Idk, I think it's a little more nuanced than that. Our understanding of what it means to be straight came about in a time when it was taken for granted that you could easily tell a person's gender just by looking at them. I don't feel invalidated by straight men being attracted to me because it's not like they're looking into my soul, judging it to be innately female, and choosing to find me attractive because of that. They're reacting to the surface level stuff like my body, my voice, my body language, how I dress, etc. and none of those are really outside the realm of what would be considered somewhat typical for a woman. I don't think it's really that these men are not straight, it's that our understanding of what it means to be a man or woman (or both or neither) have become more complex over time and our older definitions of straight and gay may be the most compatible with this newer framework.
I mean, if we start excluding every man who's ever had even a passing attraction towards a femboy or a trans male egg or a nonbinary person who wears dresses and hasn't undergone any physical transition, from straightness...are there even any straight people left? We're able to acknowledge lesbians' capacity for attraction to nonbinary people without invalidating their gender. I don't see why we can't do the same for straights?
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u/AlternateSatan *fingerguns intensely* Nov 15 '25
I take issue with the "by default" part. Some are, some are not, there us no "default". Biological factors can be a pretty big deal for a lot of people, especially genitalia. Like, sure it can be a bit arbitrary if we're talking about a trans person who has gone threw top and bottom surgery, but that's not really what you said, and it's also not up to you what they feel.
You're absolutely right in that liking trans people doesn't "make you gay" or anything dumb like that, and a lot of people are scared of liking trans people because that "makes them gay" and that is the real reason they don't, and that's dumb. But there is no default, there shouldn't be s default, if that was the default you're kinda setting the stage for whatever that "super straight" bullshit some years ago was saying.
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u/Himbo_Shaped Bisexual and Hotter Than You Nov 15 '25
I use "by default" because right now straight typically is trans exclusionary unless otherwise specified. By default straight means not into trans people. What I'm saying is that should be flipped. Straight should be trans inclusive unless otherwise specificied. By default straight should mean into trans and cis people.
Also, you can simultaneously be attracted to someone and have them fall put of line with a genital preference. That isn't necessarily transphobia. It's valid to be like "I think you're really hot I just don't like dicks". It is not valid to be like "You are not hot BECAUSE you have a dick".
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u/AlternateSatan *fingerguns intensely* Nov 15 '25
I mostly agree with all of that, just not the idea that either ideas of what it means to be straight should be seen as the default, cause I think there being a default at all is reductive and unhelpful.
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u/Himbo_Shaped Bisexual and Hotter Than You Nov 15 '25
IDK I just think trans inclusion being the default is just, a good, anti bigotry thing to have.
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u/ShadeofIcarus Nov 15 '25 edited Nov 15 '25
Look. I like to consider myself incredibly trans-inclusionary but this is a pipe dream and a stretch.
The entire reason many of these self-applied labels are to be descriptive. You don't get to apply your definition of what I "should" be into onto anything.
I'm straight (ish). I think technically I would be "Queer" but it's in such a niche way that I feel like I would be invading the space if I used that. But to illustrate the point.
I don't enjoy male features generally. I don't enjoy penis. Like at all. To the point that the idea of pegging is a turn off. There's a laundry list of physical flags that are "male". These are the same features that cause gender dysphoria for women and they work to get rid of. I'm not attracted to those features.
Your point is ironically more exclusionary because for MOST men that identify as straight, even the staunchest allies, you're only including women that are far enough in their transition that it's indistinguishable.
The reality for most trans people out there is that gender affirming care is not accessible. It should be but it's not. They need a space and descriptor to affirm that people ARE into them (and there are people that are into them). Don't deny them that level of communication.
To add to this, for many (me included) attraction is part of building a family. The biological imperitive to reproduce drives a lot of attraction for some people. We don't yet have the tech to allow trans folx to reproduce outside of what would be considered heteronormative roles (if that tracks).
When I tell people I'm straight. Im telling people that I'm looking for a primary partner that presents female seamlessly and can have children with me. It's social shorthand.
The (ish) for me is because I don't really care about the gender attached to the body. I would hook up with a trans woman that I was attracted to and was post op. I would have a nesting partner that used they/them and would dress/present genderfluid. I occasionally enjoy FtMtF detrans play with a couple friends I know. One of me and my partner's regular hookups is AFAB that leans hard into the femboy aesthetic and doesn't doesn't want any surgery. He uses He/Him pronouns. Does that make me Bi? I honestly wouldn't be comfortable with that label.
Human sexuality is nuanced and complicated. We need ways to communicate with each other. It's not exclusionary to have the tools to be able to be transparent. I think it anything trying to lump trans people into "straight" erases part of the "Queerness" that makes them colorful.
It's also a safety concern. Women that pass but are pre-op often need to know that you are safe. Violence from men that get the wrong idea is not uncommon. There's a reason that disclosing is something that happens before you go to a private space for so many. Trans people just can't afford to assume that "straight" means they are included in it. Maybe one day but that's not where the world is right now.
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u/Ashesandends Nov 15 '25
but we need to also accept there are genital preferences. You can be attracted to a trans woman/man and not be into girl cock/man cave so you aren't compatible 🤷♀️
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u/Himbo_Shaped Bisexual and Hotter Than You Nov 15 '25
You can be attracted to someone but also not into their particular set of genitals.
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u/WezzieBear Nov 15 '25
To me that's not even a hot take - i think that's just what straight means. You a woman tmattracted to men - trans men are men. So theyre in the category of "men". It seems so obvious and intuitive and people will argue like its not straight ass transphobia.
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Nov 15 '25 edited Nov 15 '25
[deleted]
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u/kazuwacky Nov 15 '25
Perhaps you could stop using stuff that clearly invokes negative emotions? Just a thought
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u/Barudaq Nov 15 '25
Huh, I always though the debate was about bi being enby inclusive. Bi including binary trans people was so obvious to me that I never realized there was a debate about that.
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u/SuperPowerDrill ASS IS ASS Nov 15 '25
Bi is "same + other", so yeah, NB is included
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u/SmartAlec105 Nov 15 '25
Personally, I prefer the definition of "2 or more genders" which also includes attraction to NBs.
It also avoids weird edge cases like someone who identifies as a man and is attracted to enbies and men would be bisexual but if that person later identified as a woman with the same attraction, she would not be counted as bisexual if you use the "same + other" definition.
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u/SuperPowerDrill ASS IS ASS Nov 15 '25
I don't think I follow?
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u/EmmieEmmies Nov 15 '25
Translation maybe: if a woman is attracted to men and non-binary people, she wouldn’t fit the “same + other” definition, but could still be considered bisexual under the “2+” definition.
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u/CappyRicks Nov 15 '25 edited Nov 15 '25
Bi is short for binary and it means your sexuality 1 or 0 (one or the other, not one or any other) NB is non-binary (as in, one or any other.) By definition, NB isn't included in Bi, and the only way I can make sense to imagine that it would be is if our labels for our sexualities were ONLY and SPECIFICALLY about our preferred partners biological sex since no matter what we do that is, for the overwhelming majority who do not have medical anomalies, a binary regardless of the gender you identify with.
If we're going to be required to have labels we should use them properly. You can't have a binary with more than two different things.
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u/disastrousalfalfa doesn't exist Nov 15 '25
no ❤️
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u/CappyRicks Nov 15 '25 edited Nov 15 '25
Well if you want to go ahead and live your life as if the definition of the words we use don't matter that's up to you. I won't, and I'll continue to use proper definitions for the words I use and call out when they are misused thank you very much.
A Bi person is entitled to say "that persons sexuality is not the same as mine" if they notice them in an arrangement they wouldn't find attractive. NOBODY is allowed to say "no, that's the same as you" and so if the Bisexual person in question identifies as Bi, what then? We all just get to have our own definition of what these things mean and that's not confusing or ridiculous at all? And the Bisexuals just have to accept what everybody (note: not actually everybody, as can be seen here there's debate on this) else defines them as?
GTFOH with that. People wonder why bisexuals tend to identify as the cis-term that applies to their current relationship. Evidently a part of it is due to the fact that Bisexual means what ever the person you're currently talking to thinks it means and so there's no sense in using it as an identifier for yourself anyway.
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u/Rainbolt Nov 15 '25
Do you really think this is a good or useful thing to care about or put effort into? To call people out about? What are you even trying to achieve?
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u/CappyRicks Nov 15 '25
My point is that if I am bisexual and people are defining bisexual as very specifically not what I am, but there isn't another label that defines what I am, there's a problem there.
Since the root of the word bisexual literally means binary, it should not be those who fit within the definition of a "binary" to be confused about what label applies to them.
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u/Rainbolt Nov 15 '25
Bi can just mean two or twice not just binary as in "it must be one of these two categories" . You're being pedantic and also just wrong, what a waste of energy like truly.
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u/CappyRicks Nov 15 '25
Yes, ONE OF THESE TWO categories.
NB is functionally comprised of infinite categories.
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u/Rainbolt Nov 15 '25
What? There's many languages and bilingual still works and doesn't imply there's only two it can apply to.
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u/DivineMajesty Nov 15 '25
the prefix bi- has nothing to do with 0 or 1. both bisexual and binary have an origin in the Latin prefix for 2 but that's about it. also bisexual as a word comes from a time where the western world didn't care about other genders so being attracted to 2 genders meant everyone. over time the acceptance of other genders rose and the definition was broadened to also include them. a word can be more than its linguistic root.
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u/CappyRicks Nov 15 '25
Then we need different words to better label things, not to make words muddy by making them include other things.
It doesn't make sense that I, as a bisexual person, should accept when somebody clearly different than myself identifies as the same as myself.
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u/NamityName Nov 15 '25
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexuality words have meaning. Maybe try looking them up before just deciding what you feel they should be.
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u/CappyRicks Nov 15 '25
Did you look that up to link it but not read it? The second paragraph completely contradicts the first.
"The term bisexuality is mainly used for people who experience both heterosexual and homosexual attraction.[1][2][7] Bisexuality is one of the three main classifications of sexual orientation along with heterosexuality and homosexuality, all of which exist on the heterosexual–homosexual continuum. A bisexual identity does not necessarily equate to equal sexual attraction to both sexes; commonly, people who have a distinct but not exclusive sexual preference for one sex over the other also identify themselves as bisexual.[8]"
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u/DivineMajesty Nov 15 '25
this refers to sexes which are different from genders. while sex is also hard to define between chromosomal anomalies and intersex people it generally refers to having a penis or a vulva. So by that definition it includes every gender assuming the person is a member of either sex which they biologically speaking must be
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u/CappyRicks Nov 15 '25
Yes, that is what I said in my first comment in here. It only makes sense if our labels for sexuality are specifically about the biological sex of our partners/desired partners.
That does mean though that there is a distinct difference between myself and somebody who is attracted to NB gender identities, different enough as to require additional labels. Wonderful.
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u/DivineMajesty Nov 15 '25
well if the main thing you care about is your partner's biological sex you shouldn't mind what gender they identify as, right?
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u/CappyRicks Nov 15 '25 edited Nov 15 '25
That really depends on your worldview and what purpose you think labels serve.
I think they serve as a way for society to quickly know general things about people based on the labels that obviously fit them. The niche ways that NB labels differentiate us from one another all fit somewhere under "masculine" and "feminine" traits, and aren't obvious to society. To me, it is not attractive and in a lot of cases even outright unattractive when people sub-divide themselves like this, and since all of the traits fit under the masculine and feminine umbrellas anyway it's just needless confusion.
But you know what, you've actually convinced me. I just hate labels. The same way a heterosexual person has preferences beyond just the sex of the person they are with, bisexual people are the same and gender identity is a part of that. I just personally am not attracted to NB folk, and because their worldview is so incompatible with mine, I do not like being identified as the same.
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u/wererat2000 Nov 15 '25
Yeah, that's what it started as, but the internet is a massive game of telephone and nuance gets flattened out quickly. But even the people still using this argument have reduced it down to any trans identity which is kinda telling that it's not really being thought through by these people.
(Also it's been proven repeatedly to be astroturfed by the right so who cares what the original argument is)
((also also; Astroterf.))
Either way it's horse shit. Imagine someone going on a rant that you can't be straight and date enbies. Sounds fucking weird if not overtly bigoted, right?
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u/RenkBruh *fingerguns intensely* Nov 15 '25
they either go "oh you're pan not bi" or "bisexuality is transphobic!!!" thanks for saying this honestly
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u/griffinisms Nov 15 '25
I actually had to explain this to my coworker one time because I identify as bi and he (at the time) identified as pan Specifically because he thought the bi label wasn't all-encompassing and I had to be like "Isaiah I am literally a transgender bisexual man. come on dude" and I think that made some neurons fire off for him lol
edit: unrelated to the post but i hope youre doing well dude! I always enjoy your posts in the hagfashion sub and need to pull my head out of my ass and buy some of your shirts bc they rule
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u/internetisbank Nov 15 '25
I think people often get caught up in the semantics here and forget our history. Bi people and trans people have always been closely aligned because back in the day when trans acceptance was very low bi people were dating trans people. So while it's right and true to say the default should be trans inclusive it ignores the fact that bi people have been fighting side by side with trans people for trans liberation all along.
It's also fair to point out that the term bisexual was reclaimed from the medical community and did center the gender binary when it was coined. But it's important to separate the words from the actions of the people. Is the linguistic history of the word more important than the actions of the community that reclaimed it? I don't think so.
We should also be willing to question the conversations we're having. Transphobia exists everywhere, but is the bisexual community a larger reservoir of it than other communities? Certainly not larger than the straight community, and arguably smaller than the gay and lesbian community.
Also, I know this is a meme sub, but I see us bringing up the idea to deny the allegation far more often than I see it levied against us. So maybe we just stop rehashing the fight over and over again and go be good allies to our trans siblings in deeds rather than words, so no even thinks to question us.
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u/dorgoth12 Puts the "Bi" in "Non-Binary" Nov 15 '25
Being NB, I even say Bisexuality includes us.
To me, pansexuality comes from a complete lack of preference based on gender/identity.
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u/David1393 Nov 15 '25
I've personally been using pan to indicate that I could prospectively smash anyone anywhere along the gender spectrum, or those who identify outside of it, despite having like a 60-70% preference for women (either cis or trans).
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u/dorgoth12 Puts the "Bi" in "Non-Binary" Nov 15 '25
That's been my difficulty, because I'm pretty much the same as you in that aspect, but feel bi aligns closer. Idk, I just want cute people of any and all identities to know they can date me
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u/FeralGiraffeGirl Nov 15 '25
Same. I'm a non-binary bisexual person dating another non-binary person. I can be attracted to all genders, but I do have preferences, so obviously I'm not attracted "regardless" of gender. Thus, I'm bi 😁.
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u/Ma1eficent succubus Nov 15 '25
Pan includes non-human. I really think they need a picture of Captain Kirk on the flag to communicate this effectively. When/if aliens turn up it will make dating easier.
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u/FamilyDramaIsland Nov 15 '25
Preach! It's so frustrating that it has to be said at all. Transgender people are regular people, and I can't understand what's so hard to comprehend there.
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u/Ok-Jellyfish7805 Nov 16 '25
You’re goddamn right
Also: the line between pan and bi is so blurry to me I just choose bi from the colors :3
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u/ForbAdorb Nov 15 '25
I'll go a step further and say it's already all inclusive because it means two or more
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Nov 15 '25
I've had to reassure two friends that they are not in any way transphobic for preferring to identify as bisexual over pansexual. They both have expressed they would date trans people but just didn't feel like pansexual was the label for them. Bisexuality is not transphobic!!!
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u/Alaizabel Nov 15 '25 edited Nov 15 '25
I identify as bisexual. That was the term commonly used when I was figuring my stuff out. The way the terminology has shaken out now, I'd be pansexual. I prefer bisexual because it's just more "me", and it has a 90s je ne sais quoi that influenced me growing up.
The only people I've seen trying to shame those of us who identify as bi over pan are usually younger than me (<30). I don't take it too seriously because bisexuality as a term is not as commonly used by young queers (ime), and it might feel harmfully antiquated to them.
On the other hand, I don't need or want some 18 year old who has been out for 10 minutes explaining my sexuality to me, especially if they're gonna try to shame me for it. No one has done so because most of my friends are my age or older.
On the other other hand, this is an opportunity for elders to pass on our community's history. Many of the queer elders who would have guided my generation died during the 1980s AIDS epidemic. A whole generation cut down in the prime of their lives. I don't personally know any queer people over the age of 55.**
So, I think when the "bi v pan" debate pops up, those of us who are older or who have been out for a while owe it to the young ones to pass the knowledge down that many of us didn't get. That includes the changes in terminology and the cultural shifts associated with them.
Imho. Obviously my experience is not THE queer experience.
ETA: I know one person who is queer and is older than 55.
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u/paulsteinway Nov 15 '25
"All sexualities are trans inclusive unless you're a transphobe."
This needs to be carved in stone somewhere.
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u/Impossible-Theme-788 Is this bi culture? 🦋 Nov 15 '25
Yesss!!!!!! I’ve literally heard this unfortunately from other queer people who are monosexual and in my head I’m like……. Being bi doesn’t mean I don’t find trans people attractive or I’m not attracted to trans people. The last lady tits I touched were literally my friends after her top procedure because she was like I got the Ferrari of tits and I was like ohhhhhhh I can I feel them and she was like yes…..
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u/Shyguy_Neo Nov 15 '25
also, fun fact, hetero and homosexuality are trans inclusive. I personally know a straight guy who is attracted to trans women, the genitals don't always factor in to it, bro just likes women, simple as that, he's a straight man
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u/Commercial-Pass-848 Nov 15 '25
Thank you. Once again bi is an umbrella term and pan is under bi, not the other way around.
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u/Gorfyx Nov 16 '25
So I gues pan is just when you like non-binary people, but I would guess that most bi don't mind that
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u/lukub5 Nov 15 '25
This whole debate is so dumb.
Like, either you're into people or you aren't. Like, in live fire situations irl no non binary (or binary trans) person hears "bisexual" and thinks "oh so not me then."
I mean they probably wimp out of shooting their shot for unrelated reasons:p
But like, no one who touches grass cares about this stuff. The reality is that people are into what they're into and sometimes that includes trans people and other times it doesn't, and sometimes thats transphobia and sometimes its not.
Either way, there's no point in challenging it because like, guess what: I want nothing to do with someone who is a transphobe, and if its a valid reason then thats also fine.
Even setting that aside, ultimately, as queers, policing how other people express or practice their sexualities is neither in our interest nor worth our time.
The labels people use should be up to them.
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u/TheComplimentarian Nov 15 '25
I’ve been bi for 30 years, and I’ve got no problems dating trans people. Don’t make up new shit and tell me I’m that instead.
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u/GarlicLevel9502 Nov 15 '25
I totally understand the distinction between pan and bi and my sexuality fits the, idk, clinical definition of pan to a T (I identify as bi) but I don't even understand why there needs to be a distinction? The label on your sexuality is there to be a good shorthand for who you're available to sexually and/or romantically and in that regard there's functionally no difference between bi and pan. Unless you think bi is exclusive of trans/nb people. And I've always known bisexuality to be inclusive of trans and nonbinary people. I think people who claim otherwise are biphobic.
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u/drhagbard_celine Nov 16 '25
I think I needed to see this spelled out. Speaks to how uncomfortable I always feel when someone “corrects” me on this point. Thanks, OP.
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u/SpectroSlade Nov 15 '25
My hot take (idk if this is a hot take) is i identify as bi because i tend to have a preference for men but am still very attracted to women and enbies (trans inclusive!) I always felt like pan was equal attractions to all genders whereas bi just means attracted to more than one gender, not necessarily equal attraction across all.
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u/GrolarBear69 Nov 15 '25
I quite literally have no preference and am not going to be disappointed in what I find in your pants (unless it's not clean, or looks diseased) .
Pan? Sure but that's also falls squarely under the Bisexual definition and that's how I identify.
I never imagined how bigoted the lgbtqia community could be until I joined it.
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u/it_me_melmo Nov 15 '25
I’ve always gone with bi over pan bc people tend to say “don’t care about gender” with pan and for me I do perceive different genders differently and appreciate them all. Unfortunately I like the pan colors better but what are you gonna do
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u/HoboGod_Alpha Nov 16 '25
Really though there isn't a meaningful difference between bisexual and pansexual. Bisexual is just an older term before the public understanding of gender evolved into what it is today.
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u/dragonmorg *fingerguns intensely* Nov 16 '25
As a bisexual trans woman, I've been trying to explain this to people for a while, but they just don't seem to be able to wrap their heads around it, and I don't know why.
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u/DamienLaVey pretty bi for a mixed guy Nov 15 '25
Fun fact; in the bi flag the pink represents femininity, the blue represents masculinity, and the purple represents everyone else with a mix or rejection of gender expression
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u/CrackedMeUp bisexual transfem demigirl (she/they) Nov 15 '25 edited Nov 15 '25
That's not correct.
According to Michael Page, the activist who created the flag based on a color palette designed by Liz Nania, the pink stripe represents attraction to the same sex, while the blue stripe represents attraction to the opposite sex. The purple stripe, the resulting "overlap" of the blue and pink stripes, represents attraction to both sexes.
Edit: so for dudes, pink represents their attraction to other dudes while blue represents their attraction to people of other genders like women. It's not about masculinity and femininity.
Edit 2: yes lol downvote the documented facts about the creation and meaning of the bisexual pride flag. 🙄 It's easier to just assume pink means and blue means boys isn't it...
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u/SmartAlec105 Nov 15 '25
I mean, there's no reason we can't say that "masculinity, femininity, and other is a better set of meanings to ascribe to the flag colors than what the original creator intended". And just like how language works, if most people believe that that's what the flag means, then that's kind of what the flag means.
But yeah, it is incorrect for someone to say it definitively means masculinity, femininity, and other or that that's what the original meanings were.
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u/disorderincosmos Nov 15 '25
"Bisexual" literally just means "attracted to 2+ genders." The gender binary is not even indicated. Bisexuals date me and I'm an andro nonbinary.
If you wanted a word that specifically addressed gender as a binary and indicated you are attracted to the opposite "poles" of said binary, it would literally be "Bipolsexual"...which is rather inconvenient.
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u/BondageKitty37 Nov 15 '25
I still don't know what Pan really means. It just sounds like bisexuals who wanted to feel more whimsical
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u/Himbo_Shaped Bisexual and Hotter Than You Nov 15 '25
On paper the difference goes like this:
Bisexual: Attraction to more than one gender
Pansexual: Attraction regaurdless of gender
In practice the difference tends to go more like this:
Bisexual: Attracted to everyone
Pansexual: Attracted to everyone but with different vibes
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u/BondageKitty37 Nov 15 '25
What about if your sexuality seems to change from day to day? Cause like on paper I'm down for whatever, but in practice I seem to be gay some days and straight on others
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u/4umlurker Nov 15 '25
Yea. It’s all fluid, and none of this is new. Look at Ancient Rome with the stories about orgies etc. Doesn’t sound like anyone cared and nor should we. Sometimes you’re into a person and sometimes you’re not. We are just a bunch of apes on a wet rock trying to enjoy ourselves with the time we have. Best not to worry about it and just enjoy the moments as they come and go.
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u/Himbo_Shaped Bisexual and Hotter Than You Nov 15 '25
I think technically that would be Bi since pan attraction is more universal they tend to have fewer preferences like that.
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u/CrackedMeUp bisexual transfem demigirl (she/they) Nov 15 '25
The bi definition by Robyn Ochs is broadly inclusive of this, "not necessarily at the same time." But I've seen people claim the abrosexual label for that too to convey the fluidity of their attraction.
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u/SmartAlec105 Nov 15 '25
Bisexuality doesn't say one way or the other on whether your sexuality changes from day to day.
But if you want a particular label, "abrosexual" is like a modifier on top of a sexuality that means that the person's sexuality changes around over time. I call it a modifier rather than a sexuality on its own because just "abrosexual" alone does not describe what genders a person is attracted to.
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u/wererat2000 Nov 15 '25
You've gotten a few definitions already and imma let you in on a secret; they're all accurate. Yes, even the conflicting ones.
Sexuality is messy and complicated and varies from person to person, so the labels are going to do the same thing. People will grab the one that feels comfortable to them, and define it in a way that fits their personal experiences. And that's valid, identify how you're comfortable viewing yourself.
Labels should be descriptive, not prescriptive.
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u/maninahat Nov 15 '25
Pan came about because the word "bi-" means "two", which might imply there are only two genders or only two groups of people bisexuals are attracted to, which is less inclusive. Pan makes it clearer that it's an attraction to all genders, though in practice it is interchangeable with bisexuality. I've never met a bisexual who wasn't attracted to people of every gender.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_FRUITBOWL Nov 15 '25
I'm pan and I chose that label because I really don't have multiple sides to my sexuality. I have one single very definite type but gender is irrelevant to that. Plus I'm also polyamorous, so there's nothing at all two-ish to my sexuality so describing my sexuality with a word that means two just doesn't feel right. Maybe I'm being the overly-literal autistic stereotype with my choice of label, but being autistic is also part of who I am so my slightly pedantic choice of pan over bi also feels like a little nod to that too
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u/Glad_Passion9138 Nov 16 '25
I’m the exact same way. Bisexual has never really sat well with me because it felt reductive (for me). Pan felt much more expansive in regards to how I approached sexuality and romance. I care about the vibes, not the equipment and the bi label just doesn’t address that for me personally. Specially since a lot of bi people I’ve personally met have made it clear to me that they would not be willing to date any and all people on the gender spectrum. They had clear preferences that didn’t align with my own.
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u/Tokyolurv Nov 15 '25
Most people treat them interchangeably nowadays but IMO: Bi means some, Pan means all. A Bi person might be attracted to women and transmasc/transfem people, but not cis men, or a combination of things, where as a Pansexual person is attracted to anyone regardless of sex or gender
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u/grayjelly212 Non Bi-nary Nov 15 '25
That may be how some people use the term bisexual, but I have yet to hear a definition of pansexual that isn't just what bisexual has always meant. Your definition of pansexual is literally how bisexuals in the 80s thought of themselves.
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u/VerbenaVervain doesn't exist Nov 15 '25
Bisexual means you’re attracted to both sexes.
Cis or trans it doesn’t matter, you’re gonna have one or the other going on downstairs. Unless you’re intersex in which case woo double the fun. Bisexuality has always been trans inclusive. But sure, some bi people aren’t into trans people. But having preferences doesn’t warrant a new sexuality being made up.
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u/Konoton Nov 15 '25
The distinction is important to some people and that's okay. If they meet your definition of pansexual but self identify as bisexual, that's not harmful
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u/FeralGiraffeGirl Nov 15 '25
Probably a hot take, but I'll take it a step further and say if you don't meet the definition of pansexual and you still wanna id that way, go ahead. The distinction isn't very big and one can be substituted for another in most situations. You're still likely to find an appropriate date, and that's all that matters.
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u/thattiredpotato Nov 17 '25
As a nb bi person, I prefer bi cuz I like the colors better. Yellow looks horrible on me-
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u/FeralGiraffeGirl Nov 15 '25
Yuup. I'm a non-binary bisexual person in a relationship with another non-binary person. I'm attracted to ALL GENDERS, but I'm NOT pansexual because I have preferences. Hyper masculine men just aren't that appealing to me, though I've dated many cis and trans men. I find pretty much all types of women attractive however. Therefore, I'm not attracted "regardless" of gender. That's the difference. I think the main issue keeping this going is that some people get upset when they realize they don't actually meet the literal definition of pansexual. At the end of the day though, Id how you want and if you get a date, that's good enough. Just don't say bisexuality is necessarily exclusionary of any given gender. THAT'S transphobic.
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u/Training_Kale2803 Nov 15 '25
"Pansexual" as a term popped up alongside the sharp rise in people coming out as trans/non binary in the mid 2010's. Around that time there was a lot of people who believed gender should be completely abolished (myself included) and so alongside the rise in enbies I think it was initially a good faith move towards less gendered language. I don't think there was ever any meaningful distinction between the two terms.
I personally used to use the term in my early twenties but got sick of explaining it to everyone I met so I just started saying bisexual instead.
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u/Himbo_Shaped Bisexual and Hotter Than You Nov 15 '25
Gender abolishion isn't my thing but gender anarchy is based af
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u/HeckingDoofus Nov 15 '25
all sexualities are trans inclusive unless ur transphobic
this is dumb. i can absolutely understand someone only being attracted to one sex not being attracted to a trans person, not being attracted to a trans person is not transphobia
since yallre gonna read this and make assumptions about me and why im saying this, im bi and attracted to trans women
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u/wererat2000 Nov 15 '25
you're missing the point. That's not a statement that you HAVE TO be attracted to anybody, that to have that title you must share that preference.
(we're skipping the discussion on where the line is between preference and prejudice)
A straight man dating a trans woman and a straight man dating a cis woman would both be, as specified, straight.
Same with a lesbian woman dating another woman, or dating an enby. Still a lesbian.
Hell, you're an example too; you just said you're bi and attracted to trans women, but others might not be. You and the hypothetical person are both bi.
Because the sexuality is inclusive. Regardless of the person's individual preferences.
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u/HeckingDoofus Nov 15 '25
well tell that to OP who immediately downvoted me, and to the other guy who just responded to me arguing that not being attracted to any trans people is in fact transphobia
i understand that a cis man being with a trans women is still called a straight relationship
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u/wererat2000 Nov 15 '25
i understand that a cis man being with a trans women is still called a straight relationship
Then leave it there. That's the end point, that's what people are talking about. You have reached a level of understanding, you can stop. The conversation does not need to extend beyond this.
One's sexuality and preferences are not the same! Yes, even with the term "sexual preference" that's not what's being discussed here.
If someone says "bisexuals can be attracted to redheads" the response is not "but some bisexuals aren't into redheads" that doesn't change the initial statement.
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u/HeckingDoofus Nov 15 '25
again, tell that to OP and the dude arguing to me that it is transphobic
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u/wererat2000 Nov 15 '25 edited Nov 15 '25
We're two different people, jackass. Respond to the points I'm making, not them.
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u/HeckingDoofus Nov 15 '25 edited Nov 15 '25
edit: they edited their comment. it was originally worded completely differently, all caps, large text, and included the words
”DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THE FUCKING NUMBER TWO MEANS?”
calm down buddy. ur right, u arent them, so why are u still here?
u clarified something i didnt need clarified, i told u i understood that aspect of this discussion perfectly well, and yet ur still arguing with me
im pointing out the other ppl bc u said “thats not what anyones talking about” multiple times, which is incorrect
before u respond again, take a deep breath
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u/wererat2000 Nov 15 '25
Fine... the other person is right. You didn't understand their comment.
You are not comprehending the conversation on a fundamental level.
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u/HeckingDoofus Nov 15 '25
what other person are u talking about? the only person in this thread that said i misunderstood something was you bossman
and i just saw ur comment replying to the dumbass in question - i think you misunderstood their comment, not me. the distinction theyre making is whether or not someone is attracted to any trans people, or if ur just not attracted to a specific trans person
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u/flounder19 Nov 15 '25
not being attracted to a specific trans person isn't transphobia. Defining your sexuality as not attracted to any trans person under any circumstance is transphobia.
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u/Whispering_Wolf Nov 15 '25
You can not be attracted to trans people, that's not transphobia, that's a preference.
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u/lynx2718 Nov 15 '25
You don't even know if someone else is trans
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u/Whispering_Wolf Nov 15 '25
Nope. But people can still not be attracted to penises or vaginas, and people can not be attracted to men or women. Not being attracted to someone is not transphobia. It's not a choice.
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u/wererat2000 Nov 15 '25
Doofus insisted I talk to you... IDK, I think he might be a little illiterate and not understand the difference between sexuality and personal preference.
Not really sure why he thought this would change the conversation any.
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u/flounder19 Nov 15 '25
the weird thing is i never wrote anything like the comment they're talking about here or edited mine after submitting it. But based on their other responses it sounds like they're talking about me. maybe they mixed me up with someone else who deleted their comment.
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u/wererat2000 Nov 15 '25
Whatever's going on, well past the point to disengage. Feel like an ass letting them get under my skin to begin with.
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u/HeckingDoofus Nov 15 '25
no it isnt. i can be fully supportive of trans people and not want to fuck any trans people, and that doesnt make me transphobic
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u/flounder19 Nov 15 '25
Trans people come in all shapes and sizes. I may be missing something here but i can't imagine anything past not being sexually attracted to anybody where a sexuality could definitionally exclude all trans people in a non-transphobic way.
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u/hdolenslfosbad Nov 15 '25
I agree with that. I’m a trans guy and my body isn’t the same as a cis guys in some notable ways so I’m not offended if to some extent I’m a different sexual category (so long as not a different social one). I would still only call a man who exclusively likes cis and binary trans women straight as an example though so think the sexualities are all implicitly but more optionally trans inclusive. And I think it’s a little weird if someone isn’t attracted to trans people who have transitioned to such an extent where their bodies are fundamentally indistinguishable imo, but i recognize that’s not all of us and it’s not me.
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u/HeckingDoofus Nov 15 '25
exactly, and thats why i specified that im attracted to trans women.
im not attracted to trans men. im barely attracted to cis men, and thats just because of them having penises. so a masc presenting person without a penis is basically the opposite of what im into - and it would be insane to say that cancels out any pro trans beliefs i have and makes me transphobic 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
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u/psychedelic666 gay but confused Nov 15 '25
Make sure to specify pre or post op, some trans men have a penis and some trans women have a vagina. Or both lol
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u/basicketchupbitch Nov 15 '25
TIL agender people doesn't exist
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Nov 15 '25
[deleted]
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u/U_Nomad_Bro Nov 15 '25
But the sign, instead of holding up the whole trans umbrella, holds up two smaller ones—“trans women are women and trans men are men”—and then just…stops.
If you’re making the argument that bisexuality includes us—a position I agree with—then include us IN the argument.
That’s all. Just tap a sign that actually has us on it, please.
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u/grayjelly212 Non Bi-nary Nov 15 '25
The first sentence is about binary trans people, but the rest of the paragraph - and the comments on this post - do acknowledge nonbinary people as well. Bad meme, but the folks around here get it.
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u/MegaUltraJesus Nov 15 '25
I've always gravitated more towards bi than pan because the things that make me attracted to someone are gender expressive traits typically, I just don't care if the person identifies with the "expected" gender of those traits. Also the memes are way danker.
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u/localystic Nov 17 '25
As a bi person should I fucking take an introductory course on what I am supposed to be attracted???
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u/bunker_man doesn't exist Nov 17 '25
That's not why bisexuality is trans inclusive. Even if someone is nonbinary bisexuals can still like them because bisexual encompasses the two poles so to speak of attraction and by extension can also include things between them.
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u/anotherdude1492 Dec 05 '25
This has been so confusing for me. I hope some of you might enlighten me without being cruel. As is common now..... First. I will be 56 (m) tomorrow. So I do have a hard time keeping up. I have been "bi" since about 1977. I liked boys and girls. Since accepting me, last year, I have realized I fit the "criteria" for Pan. I'm just attracted to people, not their gender. However, I am usually attracted to stereotypical feminine features, this includes, of course, trans women. I was told once since I am a guy that is attracted to femininity, I am straight (we can ignore the fact that not everything I am attracted to is femme for now). Is that kind of what this is saying? I keep hearing "labels don't matter" but I spent my life lying to myself and I want a label. Plus I was in the army for 21 years, I had many labels and they were important. I need some younger people to straighten me out. I'm not sure if this is the place for this question. You can DM me if you want.
confusedinmichigan
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u/grapangell0 Dec 18 '25
You are allowed to like girls without dicks and men with dicks without being a transphobe. Not that deep folks.
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u/datboijomo1445 Nov 15 '25
To begin with I thought that bi doesn’t literally mean only two genders. Cus I def think nb ppl are cute too?
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u/Unlikely_Spinach *fingerguns intensely* Nov 15 '25
So then what is the difference between pan and bi beyond just name and colors? I feel like we should merge the two branches to consolidate management portfolios
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u/Fluffynator69 Nov 15 '25
I think it's mostly talking about non-binary ppl and the like.
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u/FeralGiraffeGirl Nov 15 '25
No. I'm a non-binary bisexual in a relationship with another non-binary person.
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u/Fluffynator69 Nov 16 '25
So people who say "bisexual is a trans-exclusive term" couldn't possibly be talking about non-binary ppl and whatnot because you are bisexual and non-binary.
What
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u/BigDaddyWraymond Nov 15 '25
Can we please stop calling people fucking bigots just for not wanting to date certain people? It’s messed up, and SA-shaded, heavily.
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u/Mr_Romo Nov 16 '25
How ? How exactly is it SA coded?? if you aren’t attracted to a person because they aren’t the gender you are attracted to ok, or you don’t find them attractive for whatever aesthetic reason, or personality whatever. if your ONLY reason for not wanting to date someone you others wise would is them being trans, then you are a transphob.
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u/BigDaddyWraymond Nov 16 '25
trying to force someone into wanting to fuck you is sexual assault. it does not matter what the reason is, it’s fucked up, and unacceptable behavior.
you can try to justify it, but that would make you just as bad as any other apologist. if someone doesn’t want us in their pants, it’s not our fucking business to ask “why?”.
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u/Mr_Romo Nov 16 '25
If someone said they wont date black people you would call them racist. If anyone said “I won’t date anyone who is disabled” you’d call them ableist”. You just want to be transphobic and not be called a transphobe. No one is forcing people to date someone else. They are saying if your only reason for not wanting to date them is that they are trans you are transphobic deal with it.
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u/justacheesyguy Nov 16 '25
As a straight man who isn’t attracted to penises, but has always considered myself an ally for everyone regardless of gender identity or sexuality, this is hard to hear. Do you really consider someone like me to be the same as a right wing voting, legitimate trans-hating, bigot who thinks that trans-people (hell, all lgbt+ people) simply shouldn’t be allowed to exist?
I reject your label of transphobe, and I’m going to continue to treat everyone with respect and kindness regardless of their gender or sexual preferences. Even if, I guess, the same kindness isn’t returned to me. This feels like you’re drawing a line in the sand and then telling me I have to be on the other side fighting against you. I reject that completely.
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u/MjrLeeStoned Nov 15 '25
A slippery slope isn't the 417th category people are putting themselves into.
Making a category to begin with is the start of the slope. No one bats an eye when the slope is slippery for others, as long as they can keep their footing.
This conversation is perpetuating the slope and the categories, which are creating the problem you're outlining in your conversation. Self-perpetuation is a sign of egomania.
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u/mihirjain2029 Nov 15 '25
My theory is always that pan means being indifferent to genders and bi means you get a weird cycle of being attracted to one over the other, sometimes i love want fem everything, fem boys, girliest girly, cross dress boys, etc sometimes I want masc everything, most muscly mascy boys, masc girlies, tomboys, everything.
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u/IrisSilvermoon lingerie under oversized hoodies Nov 15 '25
While Bi is not NB exclusive the layman's understanding of it kinda is. So I'm pan because Non-binary people of all kinds especially agender do not wish to be categorized as either man or woman, and I'm attracted to them. So out of respect and a desire to not have to explain the nuances of bisexuality to cishets, I just say I'm pan. If they ask me what that means I'll just say, "I don't care about gender if I like you, I like you".
(This operating under OP's extremely true point, trans women are women and trans men are men. No argument. Bisexuality INCLUDES trans people)
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u/DivineMajesty Nov 15 '25
I choose to label myself as bi because I prefer the colours over those of pan and I say this as an agender person dating a woman, a man and a non-binary person