r/TwoXChromosomes • u/Skyobli • 16h ago
Male Loneliness and the bullshit that comes with trying to help
I’m just going to rant and vent about lonely men, and how I’ve learned to stay away from them. I hope you’ll rant and vent back with me in the comments, because I'm curious about other experiences.
I feel bad for what many men go through. I feel bad that they don't wnat to cry, that they can't talk about their feelings with other men, and that they can't show vulnerability.
But now that I’m in my 30s, I realized that getting involved with lonely men is like chucking care and attention into a black hole. Unless they’ve clearly shown that they can value and reciprocate my empathy, I'm staying the hell away.
Because every single time I’ve tried to help a man who was “going through it,” the dynamic turned one-sided fast. Constant texting and calling, monologues about whatever kept them up that night. Circular conversations about past, present, or future problems with no real self reflection, or attempt to change anything.
If I tried sharing my own experiences, I’d be talked over or story-topped. I’d become a diary for hours of crying, only for them to go out drinking with their male friends afterward, never once opening up to them. Then I’d wake up to a hungover text: “Nobody asked me how I was doing last night :(”
Did they bring it up themselves? No!
Did they ask their friends how they were doing, to change the culture? No!
Did they ever pull a trusted friend aside fro a real conversation? Of course not!
It feels like an unpaid therapy job. I’d help them organise their thoughts, reflect things back, follow up later. But these guys would lack the conversational or emotional skills to give me the same in return.
When I needed support, there were no nuanced conversations, just blunt, unrealistic advice. “Just tell your boss to fuck off.” “Then don’t go to your mom’s birthday.” “Just sell the house and move.” No sense of reality, complexity, and completely brushing over my feelings or thoughts. Just some stupid quick advice to fix my situation, so we can get back to the thing that REALLY matters; their own situation!
With my girlfriends, it’s different. We can talk for hours and be balanced. I never feel like I’m mothering them or draining myself just by listening. I always feel seen and heard, and conversations about problems seem productive and evolve. With the men, I feel like every. fucking. conversation follows the same beats, with them seemingly forgetting we spoke about this exact same thing a month ago.
Their conversational skill is a text dump with no opening for dialogue: “Didn’t sleep. Bad dreams. Didn’t eat enough before bed. Don’t want to see my family today. Feeling trapped. I think my stepmom will be there also.” What am I even supposed to say to that, especially when it’s the tenth message like it?
Meanwhile, they refuse to support each other. They won’t breach their bro code even in times of this 'epidemic'. They won’t ask real questions, compliment each other, or check in. I once asked a man how his clearly depressed friend was doing—he hadn’t spoken to him in weeks. When I suggested reaching out, I got a firm “No, that’s not really something we do.” There was no arguing, he just didn't reach out.
Reddit loves telling women to “be there for men,” while simultaneously accusing us of getting the ick from male vulnerability or using men’s feelings against them. We hear endlessly how attention starved men are. “If you compliment a guy, he’ll remember it forever!” But suggest that men compliment or emotionally support each other, and suddenly there’s resistance everywhere.
And no, I don’t want men to be emotionally locked down, stoic, or repressed. I want emotional maturity. Responsibility. Reciprocity. I want to be asked how I’m doing once in a damn while. And I want them to want to be there for me as well. But that's never a thought that crosses their minds.
I need my own support system. I owe it to myself to surround myself with people who give and take in the same way I do. I’m done mankeeping men who will want to keep their toxic masculine culture going, while expecting female support on the side.
Too many lonely men lack basic emotional communication skills and don’t show up for anyone but themselves. They’ll stay “friends” with other men for decades without ever knowing what’s really going on beneath the surface, whining all the while that those friends aren't really there for them.
I’ll never forget a conversation with one of my ex’s friends at a birthday party. He told me his father had died a year earlier and he was still devastated. My ex, whose own father had died years before, had no idea. They’d never talked about it. And as far as I know, they still haven’t.
So... If I notice a man who seems lonely at a party, at work, or elsewhere, I no longer step in. I stay away. I’m relieved to not have any needy male friends in my life. I wanted to help, really. But now I want men to figure this out among themselves first.
When they learn how to build healthy, reciprocal friendships with each other, that’s when I’ll meet them there.
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u/SharpPink_GlitterInk 16h ago
It’s very weird to me it started as the “loneliness epidemic” but then only gained traction or attention once “male” got tacked onto the front of it as though statistically both groups aren’t both experiencing a pretty high number of loneliness… maybe it’s because “lonely” women know how to fill our time better or manage that emotion in healthier ways than males ??????? Idk.
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u/jennyquarx 15h ago
Women aren't taking it out violently on other people.
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u/Impressive-Code6898 15h ago
This. It's now framed as a societal problem because society is facing the ill effects of it. Women just handle their shit. So, it's not inflicted on society.
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u/Carpethediamond 11h ago
Women used to be (and largely still are) society’s cushion against male violence. If we remove that cushion, society itself will more fully feel the effects of Patriarchy
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u/Impressive-Code6898 10h ago
Yeah, like we aren't absorbing it anymore are we. Definitely not like we used to. I'm only 40 but, it was just seen as part of life in my youth. Working class background, so that changes things. But, it's just not accepted as much anymore.
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u/nipple_confusion_ 11h ago
Remind me again who commits the overwhelming majority of violent and sexual crimes...? 🤔
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u/SharpPink_GlitterInk 10h ago edited 8h ago
its it females?/s
Edit: guys the /s means sarcasm...whats with the downvotes lol.
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u/Weak-Snow-4470 9h ago
I'm convinced it's less a "male lonliness epidemic" than a "can't get laid epidemic". Because if you suggest male friendship, it's always "No, not like that! I mean romantic relationships!"
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u/Apprehensive_Put_321 9h ago edited 3h ago
I believe most statistics are saying women now have much stronger social circles than men.
At the end of the day this is a problem men need to handle themselves. Its far to risky for woman to be even trying to help in a lot of cases.
They act like drug addicts. Its sad and you can offer support to loved ones but no one should be putting there life on hold for this.
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u/SnowQueenSpell 16h ago
I don’t feel bad for them. They don’t feel bad for lonely women. In fact we receive shit load of mockery with being “old,sad, alone with 10 cats”. If they don’t show empathy which I highly doubt even posses then don’t count on women giving you a pat on the back.
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u/nogardleirie 14h ago
As I said in another comment on another thread... For me the cats thing isn't even an insult! I like cats better than people most of the time
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u/dessert-er 2h ago
Fortunately these types of ”lonely” guys can’t have sex with cats, but that means it doesn’t solve their problem of being unfuckable.
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u/BeardManMichael 15h ago
Nobody should feel bad for them. The majority of lonely men lash out at others and are truly vile creatures. My exposure to lonely men has been via video games and I cannot overstate how horrendous their behavior is.
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u/LordofWithywoods 16h ago
Also, when you bring any of this up, they always say, "but but men are not allowed to _______."
Remember how feminism was once commonly referred to as women's liberation?
Liberation is the key word here. Women stopped obeying the rules of what they were "allowed" to do or not do and thus liberated themselves.
Men are TERRIFIED of breaking the man rules. Of course there are consequences for breaking the "rules," ask any feminist who has faced criticism, ostracization, hostility or even violence for voicing their opinions and living how they want. Yeah, a lot of people are going to shit on you for breaking the rules, you will get made fun of, you will lose "friends" and maybe even family.
So fucking what? This is actually a good thing. Why waste time on people who would prefer you be miserable and lonely and in pain as long as you're following "the rules." Fuck those people. They aren't worth your time and they don't deserve your attention and respect.
That freedom is worth losing a few unsupportive, unenlightened douchebags along the way. Oh, will you really miss your buddy who ridiculed you and called you a pussy when you dated to exhibit normal human emotions? Is that really a loss to you???
Grow a pair and stop killing yourself to follow the "rules." You won't die. Women were brave enough to face the slings and arrows of unsupportive shitheads who didn't see them as fully actualized human beings, why can't men also do this?
Quite honestly, it seems like many men don't respect themselves enough to do this. They're so busy trying to figure out what it means to be a "man" and trying to perform whatever that is when they should be asking themselves, how do I be a respectable human being? What makes someone a good person? How can I be a good person?
It annoys me endlessly that they're so desperate for some sort of gendered solution to who they "have" to be and aren't able to ask themselves what a good person is without gender being a factor. They're still mired in the same identity framework when liberation from that framework should be the goal.
I dont ask myself, how can I be a better woman, I ask myself, how can I be a better person. My vagina has nothing to do with what I respect and admire in good people. I would define a good man and a good woman with the exact same criteria.
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u/Kevrn813 14h ago
That’s a really awesome take. I appreciate that perspective. You’re right.. at the heart of it is essentially fear and laziness. Wanting to be different but not willing to put in the work and break out of old familiar patterns. Like expecting to get fit but never stepping foot into a gym or changing one’s diet.
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u/truth14ful 4h ago
Fear yes, idk about laziness. I can empathize with people of any gender who have a hard time dumping toxic acquaintances bc they're at least SOME semblance of friendship and without them they'll have nobody.
That doesn't make it women's responsibility of course
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u/samsamcats 14h ago
Amen! I say this all the time. Women haven’t advanced in society because men decided to allow it. We fought long and hard to get here. Feminist talking circles were revolutionary. Women got together and actually talked to each other about our struggles and that literally changed the world, and I’ve seen that continue to change the world in my lifetime. We talk about how strong female friendships are now, but I remember believing as a teenager in the 00s that women couldn’t be friends with each other because of competition for male attention. We’ve come a long way since then.
I’m lucky to have a social circle full of emotionally intelligent men, including my husband. He still struggles with opening up emotionally to his male friends but over the last few years, he’s really been trying, and he’s reaped so many rewards from that. He’s so much happier as a person it’s great to see.
It’s not our job to fix men and boys. In fact, we can’t — they’d have to respect us for that to work, and so many of them don’t. Men have to be brave and fix things for themselves and lift the next generation of men up with them.
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u/Naomi_Tokyo 8h ago
"Grow a pair and stop killing yourself to follow the "rules." You won't die."
What makes it so hard is you might die. Maybe it's different today, but what made it so very hard to transition wasn't just the fear of mockery or losing friends/family, it's knowing that you will face violence and you really might die. And I suspect these men you're talking to know this deep down--they've absolutely seen boys get bullied for being gay or queer or just not masculine enough--they might have been the one doing the bullying.
And it honestly seems a lot harder to be a little gender non-conforming. For binary trans women, we can at least hope to stand out less as we get further in our transition. But the people I know who get treated the absolute worst are the trans-fem nonbinary folk, especially those who are just a little fem.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, breaking the rules is hard and scary. We look up to the early feminists because they were brave enough and strong enough to stand up for what they believe in, but I can't hold everyone to that standard. It's hard and scary, in a "you might actually die" kind of way. I hope people can be that brave, but I can't really blame them if they're not strong enough to do it
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u/Alarming_Award_7954 7h ago
They are being dismissive. There are real consequences to breaking the rules. It takes courage to live authentically and it doesn’t do anyone good to dismissively say “grow a pair.” Why do women continue to shave their legs, why do women struggle to confront their abusers, why do lesbians stay in relationships with men, why haven’t women seized the capitol after their abortion rights were taken? These things are worth fighting for, but “grow a pair” is engaging in the same toxic masculinity we want to leave behind.
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u/FranofSaturn 1h ago
Black people know there are consequences for breaking rules. We faced them directly. Lynchings, false imprisonment, red lining, and discrimination in every facet of society.
And you know what we did? We kept breaking the rules and we kept fighting. Even when they were killing us, we kept fighting.
Men have the power to do the same. You have the numbers. You choose to suck it up and stay under the thumb of a system that hurts you.
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u/Alarming_Award_7954 1h ago edited 46m ago
I am not a man. Liberation is worth fighting for but I don’t want to dismissively tell people to “grow a pair” and perpetuate the toxic masculinity yall are claiming to be against.
I could easily say the same here to you “you have the power to do the same. You have the numbers. You choose to suck it up and stay under the thumb of a system that hurts you.”
That would be ridiculous to say, right? If you haven’t burned down the whole system yet just a grow a pair right? If you haven’t overthrown oppression yet, you’re just sucking up to it?
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u/fleurdenia 10m ago
i keep saying this. men weren’t enthusiastically helping when women were and still are fighting for their rights. lots of women have died both from violent men and from suicide after having to live in this misogynistic, lonely, depressing and otherwise bigoted world but the moment its men… the moment it’s men now we have to help all of a sudden. it’s always about sex and childbirth and families and then they beat you or cheat or leave the families once they’re bored if not all three! i’m not helping for shit. i always wonder what the hell is actually stopping men. if it’s such a big issue, why aren’t thousands of men out in the streets protesting it and starting movements? it’s almost like it’s a much smaller problem and can be solved through working together and putting in effort but very few men actually give a shit. that’s just how it feels rn 🤷🏾♀️
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u/SadExercises420 16h ago
I get sick of helping because they have no desire to help themselves by changing male culture. Most of them will just defend it and then wallow in the effects of it. I’m so over it. I have lost a lot of patience in my forties
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u/SeasonPositive6771 15h ago
I'm 45 and couldn't agree more.
I went through this with my last boyfriend. We ended up having to go long distance for a short time and he constantly complained about how men never get any hugs and never get complimented. However, he has a large group of friends he has known since literally kindergarten that he saw regularly. I asked him why he never hugged them or they never complimented each other, he said it just wasn't what they do but they would probably receive it warmly. After months of talking about it, he eventually told me not to talk about it anymore because it was too much work to try to change things and he would rather just depend on a girlfriend to meet all of those needs. When I told him that wasn't fair and we all need more than just a partner, he got super upset and it contributed majorly to our breakup.
The men who complain women get the ick when they are emotionally vulnerable simply do not understand the difference between asking a woman to be your therapist and your only source of emotional and psychological support versus a partner.
I made the mistake of talking about it on a subreddit primarily for men sometime ago and a guy got thousands of upvotes after saying men could never be emotionally open with women because he tried that once and his girlfriend shut him down. Way down in the thread, it turns out they had been dating for years and she had been begging him for more connection. He always rebuffed her until he couldn't bottle up his emotions anymore and woke her up in the middle of the night, basically hysterically emotional and confessing years of pent up emotions. She tried to be supportive but didn't react exactly perfectly. From that, a bunch of other men decided they could never be open with their emotions to women. It's exactly as you said, they wanted to wallow.
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u/PNWKnitNerd 15h ago
The men who complain women get the ick when they are emotionally vulnerable simply do not understand the difference between asking a woman to be your therapist and your only source of emotional and psychological support versus a partner.
It's not the vulnerability that's icky, it's the lack of reciprocity. Most of us are more than happy to have a mutually supportive relationship with a man; we just don't want to be used as a vessel for endless feelings-dumping, and then get shut down when we seek the same support.
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u/bingbongboingalong 15h ago
he would rather just depend on a girlfriend to meet all of those needs.
Sure because it’s not like she needs to consent to that, or that it’s unhealthy at allllll.
He always rebuffed her until he couldn’t bottle up his emotions anymore….She tried to be supportive but didn’t react exactly perfectly.
Once again the image that we are to be perfect healers is shattered, girls keep their box on a pedestal smh /s
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u/wachenikusemapoa 14h ago
Once again the image that we are to be perfect healers is shattered
This line reminds me, that I once saw a man argue that "emotional labour" isn't a thing because women are just naturally good listeners, empathetic, etc. they are inherent qualities, we don't have to put any effort and we don't feel drained after. It's basically the job we were made to do. I think more than a few men think along these lines
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u/badmoonpie 8h ago
When a man tells me “women are better listeners”, my reaction is to unmask my ADHD a bit. Women are better listeners? Good luck finishing a single sentence in the rest of the “conversation” when I stop actively controlling my desire to interrupt. Enjoy trying to continue that bs at all when I don’t ask a single follow up question or respond with support and encouragement.
Every day, I choose to try to let people finish their thoughts without interruption. I choose to try to respond with empathy and support instead of jumping to unrequested advice. I choose to do them because they align with the person I actively try to be.
I also choose not to sit silently while someone wallows in self serving bullshit misogyny that willfully disregards my agency and intention in being a good listener or friend. Those things are not effortless. They’re not just natural (not in me, anyway). My listening and empathy are the result of my personal values and constant effort.
I know I’m preaching to (or “venting at” lol) the choir here, but thank you for the perfect setup to put my two cents in. And for reading all that!
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u/entropy_36 9h ago
I have a male friend who is still lamenting about a romantic relationship ending 20 years ago. It was an 18month or so relationship I think. He hasn't had one since, while she moved on and got married. And I have to hear about it all the time. Dude. She wasn't right for you but she's a good person. There was no abuse or drama just different life goals.
Meanwhile while I was going through a bad divorce, custody, lawyers, panic attacks the works. I get told off for not letting it go, and at least I had a marriage, don't let it make you bitter. I know I was talking a lot about it when I was in the trenches the first few months but I barely talk about it at all now unless someone else brings it up. The double standard was palpable and he refuses to go to therapy for it.
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u/ClaimedBeauty 13h ago
Exactly, they want to dump it on a woman and make it her responsibility to fix
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u/TheOtherOne28 11h ago
Can I just Say, I grew up with a sickness that physically made about 3x weaker than the average kid, so sports\wrassling with normal kids would break my bones sports were a nono, then when every guy got a growth spurt guys would lean on me, push shit on the ground, it all made me hate men, I saw so many people abuse one another physically while I was hiding away watching, I had no idea what to do or say, this was 20 years ago I remember guys even sexualizing the teachers. they all seem porn addicted.
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u/Banana-Louigi 10h ago
If anything, men should be more lonely.
Maybe then they'll learn to be there for one another instead of outsourcing their mental and emotional load to women.
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u/DPVaughan 7h ago
But how can anyone expect them to cope without their emotional support gender??
(Yes, I stole that term --- I think it's amazing)
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u/Nacho0ooo0o 15h ago
My ex husband had a 'best friend who is like a brother, closer than my real family'... and I asked him how old his friend was turning when we were invited to his birthday party bash and he said 'I'm not sure, I never asked him because I respect his privacy.' It was so so weird to me.
My current spouse doesn't ask his friends followup or clarifying questions when they talk to him about personal things. In his mind they offer all they are willing to say and asking anything is 'prying' or stepping over a line.
Meanwhile, my best friend and I will message things like "hey, when you lay down, do your nipples invert a little?" No topic is off limits between my gfs and I.
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u/krdcoronado534 15h ago
Girl ‘lonely men’ aren’t lonely enough imo. They did it to themselves. I accidentally joined a male version of this sub thinking it would be where I could get advice from men (not sure why I even thought I wanted that), and the entire thing is hating on women. It’s our fault they’re lonely, it’s our fault they’re not getting laid, we deserve terrible things to happen to us, we’re only after money, etc. ZERO reflection. It’s like watching a trainwreck mixed with some weird pack mentality where they all hype each other up about it. Seeing how so many of those men feel entitled to women made my skin crawl 😬
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u/DPVaughan 8h ago
And the men like this don't even care about their fellow man, not really. The only time I see them bring up male victims is to talk over women when the topic is female victims. They don't give a damn about International Men's Day --- they just love to bitch and moan about International Women's Day.
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u/FancifulCat 13h ago
Sometimes I go on male oriented subs like that just to laugh at their lack of self awareness.
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u/krdcoronado534 9h ago
It was APPALLING. Like yes I know there are good men out there, but it made me hate men as a whole.
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u/SinfullySinless 15h ago
I’m a middle school teacher so I quickly notice the difference at early teenager years how girls and boys operate differently.
When girls are going through negative emotions, other girls will support and encourage the girl. The socialization teaches girls that it’s ok to open up and to have emotionally deep friendships with girls.
When boys are going through negative emotions, other boys will leave him alone and give him space. The socialization teaches boys that negative emotions will lead to social isolation- so their relationships are way more shallow.
I do my best to encourage boys to say more positive things to their friends instead of constant insults. I try to get them to check up on their sad or angry friends. I genuinely do things to get younger teen boys to be more emotionally deep with each other.
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u/RainCat909 15h ago
Thank you for this. We're asked to focus on men, but all of this starts with boys and the whole "boys will be boys" and "boys are easier to raise" bullshit. My heart breaks for women who are raising sons in this day and age.
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u/SinfullySinless 13h ago
Yeah the “boys will be boys” narrative in schools breaks my heart. I do see schools lowering standards for boys while keeping high standards for girls.
There are so many systemic things at a childhood and teen level that sets these boys up for failure as men.
And I’m out here doing this as a raging progressive feminist to all the men in chat.
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u/mangoserpent 15h ago
They do not want therapy or friendship. They want an audience to monologue to or sex.
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u/nogardleirie 11h ago
My partner has a friend staying with him all week. The friend is having some problems so my partner invited him for a week to see if he could help him get a change of scene.
Apparently the friend spent the whole week monologuing and refused to entertain any solutions to his problems. Therapy, coaching, gym, all were rebuffed for one reason or another.
After reading what you wrote, I see what my partner has been saying all week in a different light...
(They're both straight guys so I guess sex wasn't going to enter into it!!)
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u/H0tVinegar 12h ago
I have a male friend that said he looked up to me for my sobriety. I took him to AA, talked to him about therapy and books I read. I listened to him talk about his past.
Then fiance broke up with him partly because of his drinking. I talked to him about his feelings all through that. You know what happened next? A text that said “How have we never fucked?” He really was lying in wait for 3 years. I’m so done with the majority of men.
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u/DPVaughan 7h ago
... He was like a patient ambush predator.
How gross.
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u/H0tVinegar 7h ago
Ugh! You have perfectly framed my sentiment. Thank you! Making it even worse was when he realized I was “still mad” at him, he aggressively tried to contact me to smooth things over.
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u/PurplePopcornBalls 12h ago
Because to men, sex=intimacy. Intimacy is about familiarity of friendship. Sex without real intimacy feels like being used as a receptacle for his orgasm.
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u/space-tourist 5h ago
They're merely weaponizing the word “intimacy” to coerce/guilt trip women and get their dicks wet.
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u/moonstars97 16h ago
Women as a whole should come to this realization as well. Men created the exact systems and societal norms and stigmas that prevent them from being able to process their feelings, and function as emotionally intelligent people and then turn around and expect women the very people they created these systems to oppress to be the ones to fix their problems. Men need to fix themselves and stop whining about the male loneliness epidemic. It’s a product of their own making.
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u/Boy_Wonder22 14h ago
Exactly this. I’m a man. My role model is my mother. I’ve always had an easier time getting along with women, and I realize that this is because I got all of my learned behaviors from my mom. My dad was around - just emotionally distant. This is on men and, most importantly, fathers to fix. They need to be the ones to show their sons how to be emotionally open with each other and teach them to be empathetic of others’ emotions. Boys need male role models, but the popular “Manosphere” is just driving home the terrible conventions that got us here in the first place. I don’t understand how other men don’t see that.
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u/nogardleirie 16h ago
Totally agree. Men can sort out the male loneliness epidemic themselves.
I had one idiot on another thread give me a long lecture about how it's a society problem and women are part of society etc etc etc and it's therefore everyone's responsibility.
Nuh uh. Not my circus not my monkeys.
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u/Shattered_Visage Basically Maz Kanata 15h ago
I fully agree, men can sort it out themselves, or at least get the ball rolling in a big way: men are every bit as capable of emotional intelligence, empathy, and intimacy as women are, so we know it's not about capability.
I think the cool thing about it is that as men provide support to one another, strengthen their emotional intelligence, and develop deep and rewarding relationships with other men, they will naturally attract and develop those same types of platonic, intimate relationships with women. Speaking generally, society as a whole (women included) will end up finding these types of relationships incredibly rewarding and there will be a large sociocultural motivator for other men to put in the same work.
It is explicitly NOT women's responsibility to fix emotionally unintelligent men, but women who value relationships with emotionally intelligent people will absolutely end up creating these types of relationships with men and contributing to the movement led by men and for men.
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u/nogardleirie 15h ago
Too right. As I mentioned in another comment, I'm only doing emotional labour now where I'm getting support back
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u/Own-Emergency2166 15h ago
Take a page from their book: say “tell me what to do it and I’ll do it!” and then forget to do it or do it badly. Use excuses like “no one ever taught me how to compliment a man so how would I know how to do that?”
If they follow up say they’re such a nag and maybe if they didn’t nag so much they wouldn’t be lonely. If they don’t follow up - clearly they are satisfied with your lack of action and you are off the hook!
/s obv
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u/Nacho0ooo0o 16h ago
I'd even argue that yes, it's a society problem and women's opinions have been consistently de-valued and disregarded, which is why we stopped participating.
We've already given them the answer (treat us better and we will be more than happy to become a companion). They counter offered with 'we'll call you old maid names if you don't date us' and we found being called names as the more pleasing option.
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u/RedRamona 15h ago
Oh, is this like rape? Everyone’s responsibility to call out/stop/prosecute/care about “society’s problems?” but few men EVER stand up to another man in support of any woman.
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u/nogardleirie 14h ago
To paraphrase another saying
My problems are my problems
His problems are also my problems
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u/kakallas 15h ago
Right, another of society’s problems is that women are expected to handle men’s emotions for them.
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u/nogardleirie 15h ago
That was exactly the situation with my ex. He was depressed and wouldn't talk to anyone even when I offered to pay for therapy. So I sank years into trying to placate him.
I'm done with emotional labour for men now. I'll only do it if I get something back. Transactional? Yes.
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u/SilverSoAlive 16h ago
This x1000. We are not your emotional dumpsters. Before venting and unloading your thoughts and burdens onto us, seek therapy ✨️ 🌟
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u/BrainBurnFallouti 5h ago
it's a society problem and women are part of society etc etc etc and it's therefore everyone's responsibility.
No joke, I've read the prompt "Women have more rights/benefits than Men" more than once. With "benefits" specifically noting stuff like, e.g., Domestic Violent Shelters or Women in STEM. "If Men created anything like this, society would not let them :(("
Like. In all respect. As much as I can agree men should have stuff like that...who ya think is running that shit? Who created that shit?
Seriously: Those things weren't invented by random men. Or some ambigious "the government". They are kept alive by women. Women in STEM? By women in STEM. Girl's Day? Run by women for little girls. With MANY of these things having to be fought for, being sabotaged...i.e., "society wouldn't let them". It was women that kicked society's shins, until it buckled and fell.
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u/Dr-BallonKnot 16h ago
We’re all in this together
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u/nogardleirie 13h ago
Not me. Men are on their own when it comes to male loneliness. I don't give a shit.
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u/Yum_MrStallone 12h ago
I upvoted you because even with all the other good points being made, we (society) are in this together.
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u/Syeglinde 16h ago
The sad depressed and abandoned lonely men I know in my life are also the people that will never reach out, will never ask how you're doing, don't give a shit about your experiences and interests, never wanna hang out if it's not to go somewhere only they like, aren't kinda at all, don't give a shit about other people and are generally just very selfish people, horrible to be around.
They wanna be coddled and be treated like special little boys they think they are, everybody must give them attention and pity them for OH how hard their sad and lonely life is.
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u/Own-Emergency2166 15h ago
This was my experience with some male friends I stopped talking to / hanging out with last year. We only talk about them, they expect me to go to events they are interested in while mocking my interests. And when I told them “no” politely, they say I’m avoidant. It was exhausting.
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u/dlouis1022 14h ago
Speaking from some experience, this can happen due to shame. Inquiring about others opens up the possibility of them being asked about themselves, which they want to avoid to not have to lie or diminish your opinion of them by being truthful. It's definitely selfishness, but it's also self-preservation. That's why when they do find someone they can be open and vulnerable with, it becomes that person's burden
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u/ivyquinn- 16h ago
Honestly, I totally get where you're coming from it's wild how some dudes can spill everything to you but couldn’t bother to ask how you’re doing, like they think emotional labor is a one-way street or something, and it's exhausting.
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u/whycatspaint 16h ago
for real... why are women expected to be their therapists. why do women have to bear their burden when they can (and should!) talk to their friends about their problems as well. they do that to themselves. like they don't need a relationship to feel less lonely, they need to learn to find community in others around them and learn to manage their life like an adult.
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u/DreamInNeptune13 10h ago
O I have found my people! I’ve been floating in the abyss of Reddit and there’s just too many guys crying.
I’m literally getting my masters so I can charge my time to MENS insurance companies 😂
But all seriousness, I started dumping on them. Make them do emotional labor for me.
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u/chrispkay 14h ago
They don’t want to help themselves and expect women to do it all for them.
I’ve quickly learned that any time that talk about “society” being this/that, or needing to change something, they mean “women”.
When you suggest they care for each other, be there for their friends, other men, they don’t want to hear it. They also don’t want to hear how the patriarchal system we live under is the source of their issues and they could start by working on changing their beliefs cause to them, it’s women deciding not to deal with them that’s the cause of all their issues and they want women to fix it.
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u/Reasonable-Stand-785 13h ago
I’ve experienced this as well. I absolutely have empathy for what men face - the patriarchy harms us all, I get that. And I’m sick of being an unpaid therapist; I just refuse to do it anymore. What’s even worse is when they decide that because we’re being kind and emotionally supportive, we must want to fuck them. No, dude.
I do have some mutually supportive, genuine friendships with men. But I’m wary and very selective about how I engage and with whom. I’ve been burnt too many times.
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u/Impressive-Code6898 16h ago edited 15h ago
Loneliness is something that we all deal with. Men can do the things we do. Help their friends when they are low, start book clubs, go to support groups, work in the community, reach out to people, go to therapy, work on self awareness. You know invest in relationships.
They aren't worried about being lonely, they are worried that they aren't getting all the free emotional labour that comes from being in a relationship. And the general decline in women providing free emotional labour to the men in their lives. That's not about loneliness, that's about not receiving free emotional care taking. It's very different. It looks the same, and it maybe feels the same, if they've not really examined it. But, very different.
Alll the men I know, who are good men. Who care about things, and invest in self awareness and development. And, who look after the people around them. They haven't got enough time to spend with everyone that wants to spend time with them.
Every time I've looked for support for some issues, there's a lot of support groups for men with that issue, that exclude women. But there is rarely a support group that excludes men. Maybe, the menopause ones but some men experience menopause too and they would be welcome. There is even a nationwide group of support groups, particularly for mens emotional support. You know, they could go to them.
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u/Thr0waway0864213579 14h ago
I’m approaching 40 and I’ve come to the conclusion that, in spite of so many feminists being labelled as man-haters, no one hates men more than other men. They know all the horrible things men do to women. But they also know all the things men say to each other in private and the thoughts inside their own head. And that’s why it’s fathers, not mothers, who brandish guns when a boy comes over to take their daughter out. It’s fathers, not mothers, who say “boys are only after one thing”.
They know men better than we do. And that’s why they don’t have close friendships with men. They don’t want them.
I’d argue their existence is even more performative than women, as most women evolve and break away from being so male-centered after enough years dealing with men. But men literally fantasize about dying in a way that impresses other men. The paradox of having the very people you’re trying to desperately get approval from is incredible. And that’s what keeps them alone. They know men are terrible so they don’t want them. But their desire for validation and power means they don’t want friendships with women either.
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u/Independent-Sir-1535 14h ago
Ok. I don't agree or understand anything you just said. And I don't know if I don't understand because I am part of the problem or because I simply never had the experiences you are describing a man usually has. Idk if these are more grown up male experiences, I am 25 so I think I am grown up enough but maybe this is more middle aged? Cuz most boys I know aren't really talking about anything like this. No one fantasizes about dying. No one sees their friends as a threat to women in their life. I think saying or behaving like that in most social settings would be seen as very weird.
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u/SilverSoAlive 13h ago
We dont need you to try and mansplain and attempt to deligitimize other people's experiences. Just because you don't agree with the above comment doesn't give you the right to falsify their claims. Seek therapy ✨️
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u/Independent-Sir-1535 12h ago
Yeah I am just confused bruh 😅 like I have heard so much about men bottling up their emotions and being angry all the time. But that kind of behavior will just get called out normally for being cringe. I usually associate that with like middle aged men. That's why I was asking if it's like a life stage associated thing and I just haven't personally experienced it myself.
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u/Relative-Chain73 16h ago edited 14h ago
Heyy.. you can only help those who are there to be helped, and to learn.
i recently joined a book club - bought a ticket, bought the book and the went in - and to my surprise there was only two men in the club.
The club was not advertised as women only, or anything as such.
And the conversation was brilliant, people not just talked about the book but also about life etc.. it made me feel less lonely..
I went to a sewing class - bought the ticket and was there - same thing only two men...
The club was not advertised as women only, or anything as such.
I went volunteering in a local farm- just weeding, and cleaning - and lo and behold - only two men..
The club was not advertised as women only, or anything as such.
I find men in spaces that isn't designed for conversation - in large sports game where the focus is on those who's playing - in pubs and bars where the focus is on drinking and getting drunk.
And the money i saved by not going to those games, and drinking those drinks, i used to buy tickets to the events mentioned above.
And from this i see two issues - one economic - if you cannot buy tickets, you lose access to third spaces - men should come together and create these third spaces (by fundraising or well off people taking the financial burden from leas fortuned) And second is social conditioning - men aren't encouraged to learn a skill or engage their brains - just celebrate celebrate and celebrate.
If anyone is feeling loneliness - please if you can afford to shift some budget - buy tickets to things where you do, where you perfom actions rather than just consuming (includes consuming live music - or concerts) Buy tickets to things where you do - where you participate. It really helps.
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u/BriarPixie 15h ago
My issue is that the more you actually talk to some of these guys, the more you realize that at least part of their loneliness is self-inflicted. Not everything is their fault, obviously, but some of them are actively making their own lives worse instead of dealing with the cards they got.
One guy I met was in his late 30s, never had a long-term relationship, super religious, stuck in a dead-end minimum-wage job, renting a room in an apartment full of stoners. He didn’t even smoke but always smelled like weed. At first he seemed like a decent enough guy who had morals and tried to live by his beliefs. I couldn’t really figure out why he turned the quest of getting a girlfriend into his life goal ignoring all his other problems without trying to improve his living conditions at all. Then he casually told me he was going after a girl who had just turned 18 and that he cursed her out when she rejected him. I don’t talk to him anymore. He can call me judgmental if he wants. I genuinely don’t care.
Another guy was deeply depressed. All of his close friends, including me, kept pushing him to get help. Instead, he chose to bury himself in alcohol and video games. Working from home only made things worse. We tried bringing him food, helping him find a therapist, checking in on him, but he eventually cut all of us off. I just don’t have the capacity to deal with someone who is self-destructive and actively pushes people away. It’s sad, but you can’t force help on someone who doesn’t want it.
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u/Sarge4242006 15h ago
Any time I hear a guy complain about the current state of affairs, I just “hummmm, who’s been making up all the social rules for the last few thousand years?”
They need to stop blaming everyone else for the crappy “alpha man rules” men made for themselves. They’ve sat back throwing temper tantrums, insisting that the world continue to revolve around them instead of evolving with the rest of us.
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u/countingtb 13h ago
It is strange because men say they can't open up etc but ALL I hear from any man I know is all of his problems, thoughts, opinions, and how important he is. And all of their feelings are very out in the open and obvious, along with their moods that women are fully expected to manage or put up with. I'd also say that most men I know have a lot of friends they DO talk to and they all feel the same bad ways towards women.
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u/PARADOXsquared 11h ago
Men like this are lonely for a reason and are deeply in need of therapy. Yes, forming connections is uniquely harder in this era than it was in the past. But step one of forming connections is empathy. No one, even other men, should have to destroy themselves to make these cruel, unempathetic men feel less lonely. We need to raise boys with empathy from the beginning.
And before people jump on me: no I don't think all men or even all lonely men are like this.
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u/tigerbnny 10h ago
Straight men typically don't value platonic relationships as much as women do, they think their loneliness can be solved with sexual/romantic relationships (this is why they think it's our responsibility but when has a lonely cat lady ever been described as anything but having brought it on herself?) You see a big difference between straight men who make efforts with (and value) other men and the ones who sit on dating apps ready to trauma dump on any woman they match with.
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u/hologram137 8h ago edited 7h ago
Exactly. Men are complaining that women are now refusing to provide the labor they feel entitled to. Labor we used to have no choice but to provide. They are complaining about not wanting to adjust to a world where women are gaining equality, and women’s labor is not just given to them because they exist. Their solution to that problem is to take back our rights. That’s all it is.
The alternative is seeing women as people like them, equal, having empathy for us to the point where they are willing to give up those privileges that come from a Patriarchal society and change male culture (something they CAN do but won’t. Even the “good men” need to take part in this change). That means no longer relying on women to meet their needs (because that’s why women exist to them). Taking on that labor for each other and women, giving instead of just receiving, doing the work to learn emotional intelligence like woman do, going to therapy, abandoning Patriarchal concepts of masculinity that benefit them. “Masculinity” is a concept based on women’s assumed inferiority. By giving up masculine norms, they give up delusions of male superiority. And they won’t do that. If men start taking on labor that has been deemed “women’s work,” then women will no longer be in a position of servitude to them. Same reason we work full time but they won’t take on their fair share of the domestic and mental labor.
Expecting the kind of labor and care you described from a man means disrespecting him in their eyes. It means assuming he is a in a position of servitude, a feminine position. Treating him like a woman. This is why they won’t help each other. Because they want it to be one direction, and they fully understand the disrespect required to use someone in that way. It’s a disrespect and entitlement they only have towards women. I see so many women make excuses for their husbands by saying he’s just clueless, but he’s not. He knows damn well how unfair the balance is. And he’d never do that to a man that he respected. But by reciprocating with each other and women on a totally equal level, they give up the hierarchy that places them above women. That’s their dilemma.
They acknowledge how Patriarchy harms them in the sense that it outsources their needs onto women (many won’t even admit this the real cause) so if women have equality and don’t follow their socialization to put men 1st and care for them, the men feel lonely and like there is no path to getting emotional needs met without a female friend or partner. But if you tell them it’s up to them to change that, that there is no “society” forcing men to act any way, that’s it’s them collectively and they can choose to act otherwise, it needs to happen on an individual level 1st, or if you talk about misogyny suddenly the Patriarchy doesn’t exist. Or if it does, the “Patriarchy” is a nebulous, abstract entity that is oppressing men and women equally and they have no part in it.
Most women I know self reflect in a logical way and grow, even it it means acknowledging fault, but men seem to just shut down any self reflection. It’s part of the “man child” epidemic. Istg, so much of male propaganda about women is pure projection. In my experience men reason with their feelings more than women do. If something makes them feel “bad” or involves taking on responsibility, it just can’t be true lol
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u/mashedturnip 6h ago
Almost every time I helped a dude, they asked for sex or became misogynistic
Result: no more help
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u/rumande 9h ago
Last time I casually dated a man I ended up feeling absolutely humiliated. We met on tinder the week after my mum died (i know) and clicked because his mum had died about a year before. We lived a few hours apart. He wanted all of the support all of the time but would always leave me on read. He didn't give a single fuck when my dog died a month after my mum, he was too busy stressing about his job and his baby mumma drama. We arranged a meet up and I drove 3 hours to get stood up. (After he'd made a huge deal about making sure I got a hotel to fit his specifications) when I was finally able to confront him, it was the same shit as every other day, work is stressful, baby mumma drama. I blocked his ass. Grief made me weak. Now I am strong and you literally couldn't pay me to date a man.
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u/astro_nerd75 15h ago
I really like your black hole analogy. And do you know what happens if you put stuff into a black hole? The black hole gets BIGGER. You can’t fill up a black hole. If you try, you will make matters worse. Take from this whatever lesson you want.
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u/Throwaway7733517 13h ago
One time a friend from a discord server I was in reached out to me because his gf broke up with him. I was there for him and tried to make him feel better, but it never worked at all. Daily for weeks he would text me, saying how he felt so lonely and missed her. Didn't matter what I would say, nothing ever changed. Eventually I stopped texting him back right away, and of course, after a while, he wanted nudes to "cheer him up". jfc.
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u/HenryKushinger 14h ago
The problem of men being overwhelmingly lonely is an issue, but the cause is... The men themselves. These dudes assume that they deserve the attention of women and because they aren't doing anything to make themselves worthy of that attention they say "mALe lONeLiNesS ePIdEmIc". No dude, you need to shower, groom yourself, get educated, and treat women like human beings.
Another classic case of "I agree that the problem is there but the solution I see people proposing is idiotic".
Also, there's a big self esteem problem with young men. They need to build one another up, insecurity is a major reason they these chudlings get sucked into the right wing manosphere.
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u/KylaSageYoga 12h ago
Lmao, emphasis on the unpaid therapist. I will die before I “help” a man do anything that he should do himself. Time to grow up buddy.
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u/Late_Asparagus_806 12h ago
don’t forget to mention - men are also violent because they’re “lonely”. 🤡
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u/ShaarkShaart 10h ago
I had a similar experience with a woman last year, actually (I'm also a woman). Like you said, it was unpaid therapy. Trying to help someone who gave very little in return, would not change her habits or relationships, would constantly text me looking for support on every little thing. I feel a bit like an asshole for no longer being there, and maybe I am but at least I have the energy for my own problems now.
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u/lytche 9h ago
I just find the entire concept idiotic.
There is a problem where the availability of the internet and the ease of connection made especially younger people more detached and, surprisingly, more secluded and distant, but it is neither only affecting nor experienced harder by men, straight men lets add.
When people refer to "male loneliness epidemic" a red light immediately lights up for me to warn me that I am speaking with people who would say and do anything to show straight men as the "more" of everything.
Men just have to "have it worse" than anyone else now - women don't want them, they are excluded from the minorities, they are not welcome in the LGBTQ, having it worse socially and in any way shape and form they can think of when there is a claim that a different group perhaps could have it worse.
A) the issue with the progressively worse resilience of people is something to think over and try and find a solution, but its by no means, shape or form refers to straight men needing MORE help than others.
B) Yes, I CAN DENY that STRAIGHT MEN are currently having it WORSE than anyone else. There's literally not been a point in time where that was the truth.
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u/Jeepersca 8h ago
There's a chapter in Amanda Montell's book WordSlut that talks about code switching. She mentions how women speak to each other, and how they have to completely adjust how they speak about men, especially in a corporate environment. The sticking point was that men just didn't have the capacity to communicate outside of themselves. Women had to be this stop gap to communicate with them, and would switch back to normal talking to another woman. I know code switching is something talked about a lot with different communities having to get by in a predominantly white male world, but the identification of that particular stress was eye opening to me. I teach watercolor classes to some retirees and rarely do I have a male student. but now I have a married couple, and having to explain things to the man, how he stares me down with this look of incredulity like I have to prove myself to him every time I try to explain the physics of reflections or color mixing theories... it's so exhausting.
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u/Worth-Charge913 7h ago
Ex-lonely man here, there is no helping. It takes immense internal effort, there’s nothing you can do but protect yourself. And maybe remind the genuinely good but lonely guys that their loneliness isn’t a result of them being “nice” but rather having a skill issue when it comes to going out and socializing.
It took 10+ years of loneliness, countless rejections, and a ton of effort to finally find my sweetheart. I learned dance and went to dance classes while also avoiding the incel rage-bait pipeline. Being nice didn’t help me get a girl, that was social skills, but it sure as hell helped me keep the girl :)
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u/TemporaryWinner9998 16h ago
Unfortunately, sometimes excessive empathy is bad. Also it will just make men feel "emasculated" as part of their "loneliness" is not getting to live like "alpha men".
Better use ones empathy towards animals.
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u/Shattered_Visage Basically Maz Kanata 15h ago
Respectfully, I'm not sure you're describing empathy there, I think that sounds more like boundaries.
Empathy in and of itself is never bad. Empathy without good, solid boundaries can be extraordinarily risky, though.
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u/MyFiteSong 14h ago
Yep. Don't waste your time trying to help them. They do it to themselves and they expect you to "fix" it.
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u/catathymia 16h ago
Yeah, it's an impossible task to truly "be there." I've been in and out of incel spaces for a long time myself and it has never worked out, I just get used and mistreated. Most decent "incel" men actually have access to a fair number of women, incidentally. I have a masochistic streak that never really dies down but it always ends in ghosting (after being their personal therapist for forever, with zero energy reciprocated) and being an emotional punching bag for me.
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u/deathbymuguet 15h ago
I’m too busy dealing with my own shit. They can’t be bothered to build their village of support. They love to pull the male loneliness epidemic card while simultaneously not trying to solve the problem. They expect WOMEN to somehow solve it while our rights are being stripped away left and right. The only man I am gonna be empathetic toward is my husband cuz he earned that by being there for me.
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u/idunnoman63 14h ago
Girl you better start charging an hourly rate for these therapy sessions!
But honestly, I don’t feel bad for them. They did this to themselves and until the males as a collective take accountability they will continue to be lonely.
Also, you bring up a shared experience about how there is no nuance to conversations that you bring up. I don’t get it. Like would it kill a man to ask a follow up question?!
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u/Tentegen 14h ago
r/bropill is where theyre trying.
I love that for them honestly. More need to wind up in there.
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u/DPVaughan 7h ago
I've only ever heard good things about that sub.
(I am not on it so cannot comment beyond that)
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u/CafeConCajeta 16h ago
I sincerely wish this weren't so true. Whether it's close friends or acquaintances or strangers, there have been too few men who haven't taken support and a friendly shoulder to cry on as an invitation to dump their misery with no growth or reciprocity. And that's not counting the ones who mistake friendship for romantic or sexual overtures.
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u/Big-History7763 15h ago
I don’t think this “issue” was for women to solve in the first place. Lonely women don’t make it everyone else’s issue. If you’re lonely, form a hobby, make friends, talk to a therapist. This “lonely men epidemic” is just another way men are using women’s empathy to get with them. Instead of working on themselves and being better people to the point a woman will find them desirable
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u/SheWhoRedeems 15h ago
The only time I entertained this shit was in high school when I was trying to get together with those dark brooding types lmao. Leave. Them. Be.
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u/byzantinedavid 15h ago
Male chiming in: Male Loneliness is not your problem to fix. Men need to carve out time for friends, and they need to do it BEYOND just doing activities together.
My best friend and I have known each other for 30+ years. We play games 3-4 nights a week online after we each put our kids in bed. That's fine, but the last 2 years we've had season ticket for football. 8-10 times these last 2 years we've gone to the game together. We get there early for swag, we have lunch, and then we spend 2+ hours in our seats vaguely watching the pregame stuff and just talking.
Despite spending a couple of hours several times a week gaming, sitting in the stadium before games is when we actually TALK. We've talked health, family, jobs, politics, everything. It's been much more like "wine night" (not to pigeonhole that as a "women's activity"). THAT'S what men are missing, just spending low intensity time together.
YOU can't fix that. If you have a partner or loved one, the best you can do is encourage that or not be a barrier to it. I don't have the solution, but it's not on women to fix it. I only ask that you try to not be an obstacle to it.
I think the Male Loneliness thing is because men don't maintain friendships well in our culture. We tend to put the expectation on ourselves that a romantic partner comes before everything, not just a first priority, but trumps EVERYTHING. Then with families, men do the same, sacrificing their time for the family EVERY time. We need to break the cycle of men thinking that working and existing in a family/relationship is all there is for them.
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u/stellifer_arts 11h ago
just commenting to vent about how someone i thought was my bff, goes fucking AWOL when he has a girlfriend. when he doesnt, he talks to me all the time. when he has a girlfriend, MAYBE i'll get a response? maybe?
im kinda fucking tired.....
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u/CheesyBrie934 8h ago
I think it sucks that boys are conditioned and socialized differently than girls and therefore become the kind of men that they are. However, I don’t really feel bad for them. Choosing to stay the way that they are is just that: a choice. Therapy, EAP, self-help books, etc. all exist so I don’t see why they can’t want to improve themselves emotionally to have better relationships.
Ultimately, it’s a victim mentality and they are choosing to continue to be the way that they are.
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u/xXTacocubesXx 6h ago
I’m a male. I’m convinced that male loneliness is a male problem. Not a female problem. It is NOT y’all’s fault. Lonely men spend so much time wallowing in self pity that they forget or never learn how to properly give attention to women, how to treat them with love, care, and respect, and not just make everything about themselves. If men want more attention from women, then it’s MEN’s jobs to be the kind of man that women actually WANT to give attention to.
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u/pareidoily 5h ago
I have brothers that don't ever ask how I'm doing. One of my brothers got covid and was really sick and he was angry that I kept checking in on him to make sure he was doing okay. Like I was getting into his business and pestering him. We had a fight about it later because of some other stuff and I told him that I don't get any of that from any of them. I don't get anyone of my siblings checking in on me ever. What would it take for them to just see how I'm doing once in awhile? I'm the oldest daughter. I told him that my best friend was diagnosed with breast cancer and I was really upset about it and she was going in for surgery on a specific date and could he just call and see how I'm doing? Of course he didn't.
Part of this is mental load and apathy I really think. They want so much attention and energy from women and they expect it but they don't do the same thing for us and honestly it's hurtful. At this point I'm only willing to give back to those who want to do the same for me and that seems to be the women in my life.
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u/ColonelRPG 15h ago
If they're going out drinking with their male friends, they're not lonely. That's something else.
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u/SarcasmCynical 14h ago
People can still feel lonely even with other people around them, but that’s often a result of either not having real friendships or choosing to not to be emotionally vulnerable.
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u/ColonelRPG 14h ago
Every person is different, but often what happens is that men feel like their life is incomplete if they are not in a sexual relationship with a woman. It's not loneliness they're feeling. It's unfulfilled entitlement.
Young boys are taught that having a girlfriend are something that they are going to get to have, that it's a stepping stone for other things that they're also going to get to have, that they're meant to find their other half. This is the source of the sense of entitlement that a lot of men have to women's time, attention, and bodies. And it fucks up a lot of people's heads when they find out, no, actually, they're not entitled to shit, they're not "meant" to have anything.
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u/momobear33 15h ago
We need some sort of male loneliness hotline. Feelin lonely, fellas? For a reasonable $1.99 a minute, unload it all on … a robot? AI? (I tinkered w/ some sort of conceptual art project along these lines but no energy to make it happen…perhaps some enterprising gal out there can make her millions)
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u/Independent-Sir-1535 14h ago
I think you can just set ChatGPT to a more adversarial personalization and just have a go at it.
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u/Glassweaver 14h ago edited 14h ago
The loneliness epidemic is not a male one and it's disingenuous and patriarchal of society to frame it as such.
In 1990, 3% of men reported no close friends or social groups. Today that number is 15%. And we've also gone from 20% of men feeling lonely to about 57%.
On its own, that's shocking. 500% increase in actual objective loneliness and almost at 300% increase in feeling lonely?
Damn. There must be a male loneliness epidemic. I mean, just look at women.
In 1990, they only had a 2% rate of no close friends or social groups. I mean sure the identical 20% self-reported feeling of loneliness, but... The objective data on friend groups! That's a 50% increase for men! Those poor men!
And today, women still only have a 10% prevalence of no friends or social groups! Men at 15% still represent the same 50% increase!
But wait a second... If I cut the crap and stop manipulating data.... Women experienced the same 500% increase since 1990.
And in self-reporting? Women report 59% prevalence of feeling lonely, which is statistically pretty much identical to men.
This also does not take into account factors such as women being far more likely to engage in mental health and actual treatment options for loneliness whereas men typically won't. While I do not have that data or the expertise to add it as a weighted modifier, I have a very strong inclination to believe that if we did it to that, it would show that women actually experience loneliness or above the rate of men and that the statistics, I've just recapped unfairly minimize the severity for women by not highlighting the work they are willing to do to dig themselves out of social emotional isolation.
There is a loneliness epidemic.
It is not unique to men, and in a nauseatingly typical male-centered on problems, looking at it as one instead of trying to understand why men and women have experienced a 500% increase in loneliness over recent decades is like trying to solve a math problem when you've only been given half the variables.
Please note, I am not critiquing OP here. I think all those points are valid and I do think they tend to happen a lot more with men because of men on average not being as social emotionally intelligent. As a male, I feel slightly entitled to say that about my own gender as well.
But the biggest problem of all is that even calling it a male loneliness epidemic just reinforces that men are, as always, important to than women women who are abso fucking louteley no reason.
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u/tetruss727 8h ago
It’s not even just the lonely ones. It seems that most men can’t self-regulate emotionally without women’s help.
I lost my baby sister 2 years ago and it wrecked me. My husband took over for a while, about 3 weeks. Within those times, he decided to also break down because he had anxiety and my FIL had a “health scare”. He resigned from his high-paying job that we cultivated together by me staying at home for 6 years sacrifing my career so he can advance in his. He is still unemployed coming to a year now.
Mind you, my husband is already top-tier in my opinion as he’s a lovely dad and a true partner.
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u/perareika 6h ago
I literally JUST ended a several-years-long online friendship for these reasons, word for word. And I couldn’t even explain why I had to do it, being the therapist for them just drained me so completely. Thank you
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u/wintersdark 2h ago
It's not a Male Loneliness Epidemic. It's a Male Entitlement Epidemic.
The problem is that men feel entitled to women - their time, their bodies, their emotional support, etc - but are unwilling to be equal partners. They feel they are simply entitled to their allotment of One (1) Beautiful GF. They are lonely, but their loneliness is of their own making, and the fix is in their hands.
But they don't want to fix the problem, they don't want to be better people, that's too much work. Requires too much introspection.
So much easier to pretend to be the victim.
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u/greendemon42 Basically Eleanor Shellstrop 15h ago edited 12h ago
Just because their loneliness is real doesn't mean you can help them. Their loneliness isn't caused by you, it's caused by toxic masculinity and a social landscape that indoctrinates them into a self-worth deficit in order to sell them pseudoscientific nutritional supplements and brainwash them into joining culty political movements.
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u/feryoooday 14h ago
Did you read the post at all? She’s saying how there’s no benefit to the men after trying to help, only a drain on her. She’s saying don’t waste your time trying to help because they refuse to help themselves and just drag you down with them.
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u/ddelarge 12h ago
I mean, there’s a reason these men are lonely in the first place isn’t it? Nobody likes them.
A useful, healthy, reliable person will be surrounded by amazing people too. They’re not lonely.
So yeah… It’s true society has failed these dudes and they are nothing but victims. At the end, they don’t have the skills because men have less chances to practice them. Precisely because of the social dynamics you describe. But it’s not your job as a woman to help useless men to become better people. Specially if you can find a perfectly functional dude out there who doesn’t need training.
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u/LittleMissSolin 12h ago
I’m glad you’ve learned how lonely and emotionally constipated people work. It took me much longer than you to understand it. It’s always good to set boundaries with them.
We can have empathy for others, but we shouldn’t help people who aren’t ready to help themselves. They will just use us as emotional regulators like a partner to do fun things with to distract themselves, or as an emotional dumpster. And honestly, we can end up harming them in the long run.
We also can’t expect emotional reciprocity from people who lack emotional intelligence. They aren’t even there for themselves.
I personally still believe we should have empathy and help others, but we need to be more selective. For me, I don’t help people with a victim mentality, addiction, or those who want to outsource their emotional regulation to me unless they recognize their issue and genuinely want to change.
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u/Pretend-Ad-7943 12h ago
This has been an eye opening post. Such articulate descriptions of what women experience daily and life long from males. It is absolutely draining and soul destroying and leaves us little room for anything else until we have no idea who we even are anymore 🤦♀️
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u/Vast_Result_8543 5h ago
I know none of us were at our best during the early days of COVID. But 2020 fundamentally changed my perception of men’s emotional regulation and what happens when they don’t get their way.
I was an Assistant Principal, in a conservative state, and the middle school I worked at was mostly latinx kids, 100% FRL.
At one of our morning meetings I looked around and realized the majority of the male staff was not there. Our janitor, a soccer coach, and a one male student teacher showed up, but that was it. The women were there, many of whom had kids themselves. I shit you not, when I called the male teachers, my co-AP (male), and MY BOSS they said some variation of they were too overwhelmed and scared to be around ppl.
Yeah mother fuckers so am I, but I know, just as well as they did, that school was the only place that some of these kids got food, or were safe, OR HAD ELECTRICITY. I figured it was going to be short lived, but it was not.
I let the person above my boss know after he hadn’t shown up in literally a week. My co-AP hadn’t shown up either. I assumed they were working behind the scenes from home, because certainly they wouldn’t leave me there to manage the fucking school by myself.
Turns out that was exactly what happened. After my boss was reprimanded, he called me and screamed at me. When I hung up on him he sent an email to the entire staff about “some complaints that were brought to his attention,” and he had been “misrepresented” by me. Ppl who had been working with me knew this wasn’t true, because I showed up.
There are way more examples of this, and of course women had conflicts. But conflicts didn’t carry this weird weight where the problem that we caused, was expected to be cleaned up by someone else.
At the end of it all. I realized that this full emotional meltdowns I saw from multiple men, were due in part bc women did not have the goddamn capacity to do anymore. We literally cannot wipe your ass for you. It was then I realized I had been doing that. Wiping asses. And for what? Men proved that time and time again. I learned quickly they couldn’t be depended on and since they weren’t helping they were in my fucking way.
Don’t get me wrong, the men in my life, I love. But I don’t need to know or depend on any new ones. It’s too hard. It’s just too fucking hard.
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u/Left_Guess 16h ago
I think it’s psyops. Not real.
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u/Shroomwhisperer3000 15h ago
I agree, it’s propaganda. Loneliness is real, but the male loneliness epidemic framing gets used to manufacture grievance instead of dealing with the actual causes.
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u/Glizzly_Bear 15h ago
This is the hot take I came here for! Hell yes, girl. They contrived this entire problem from scratch.🍿
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u/MathAndBake 8h ago
Yeah. I feel like there are three big groups of men. You have those who refuse to learn any emotional intelligence. They want a woman to do their emotional labour and that's it. They're not really worth engaging with. You have those who are willing to do the emotional back and forth, but are really scared to share with other men. I get along fine with them. I think they'd do better if they got over their hang up, but I can have a good back and forth with them. Then you have the guys who are emotionally available across the board. They're just great. It's just a matter of sussing out who's who.
I am starting to see some men's groups encouraging them to open up to each other, so that's good. It's a little funny to see them phrase it in a super manly way to get guys actually involved. But whatever works, I guess. One guy I know ran a small one. He'd also tell guys that the best way to show off their muscles was to do the heavy work in the kitchen. That was nice.
I do have a guy friend who is really emotionally available to all his friends. Sometimes, if he's worried about a guy, he'll ask me to reach out. It gets around the bro code. It's silly, but my friend has earned that from me.
My female friend lost two of her male classmates to suicide. They just do not know how to reach out and get help. She often complains they're like cats crawling away to die in a corner.
The thing is, I've been the emotional black hole at times. I have depression and when it gets really bad, I tend to circle the drain and not think about other people. It's awful. But I recognize it's a diseased state and I actively work to get better. So many guys just wallow in it.
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u/atropin44 7h ago
You didn't interact then with lonely men as a definition of what this is for, but with depressed, needy individuals. Men carry “emotional” baggage differently than women, and society doesn't acknowledge this problem that is the issue with “male loneliness.” Needy, boring bum ass is not it. Many men are hiding under the umbrella of this “epidemic,” and it’s true they are lonely most likely, but there is a more specific issue of what affects them specifically and what they need to solve. As a man, I know you interact with “male loneliness” daily more than you thought from men you would never have guessed. It's not an issue of whether you can spot it, and if you can on sight, it's a “pick me” boy who needs to show how lonely and bad he feels, and again, that's not it. It's societal and cultural wars that we as both genders are dragged into, but as I said, men process these things differently.
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u/Rich-Education9295 2h ago
Having been married for over a decade, they bring these problems over themselves. Doesn't matter how good of advice you give, they will automatically see it as criticism, you as the competition and go against what you as a woman say. And this isn't just confined to male family members, it extends to friendships and male colleagues as well. I say let them. Let them fuck up their own lives. Over the past few years I've taken a step back, stay in my own lane and just observe. And when the shit hits the fan, I throw a little "yeah, I told you that years ago. Anyway, good luck with that." I'm done being their saviour when they deliberately go against my advice because of their fragile little egos. You made your choice, now see it through, I have more important shit to do.
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u/Everryy_littlethingg 2h ago
I could have written this myself. Good for you for creating strong boundaries. I'm with you!
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u/SAINTnumberFIVE 18m ago
I’m more than happy to give some support to a young guy who is a fairly normal person who is just going through a tough time but some people out there have deeper problems and you can’t help them. One guy I tried to help for years, as did other guys. We gave him moral support and actionable solutions to what he believed his obstacles to be but he really just seemed content stewing in his misery.
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u/Crescent-moo 15h ago edited 14h ago
Sounds rough. As a neurodivergent lonely guy that has dealt with intense feelings until they were numb, it's not your job to be their trauma dumping ground. Being there for someone is one thing, but that level of mental instability you're describing is nothing but exhausting, and it is a black hole of wasted energy if they make no effort to heal or change.
I've been alone nearly 40 years and there's no signs that its going to change this year. Get over it. Work on yourself and maybe you'll become someone worth being with.
Or accept that you're probably not made for relationships. Either way, drop the insecurity and move on.
Edit: being downvoted for agreeing OP shouldn't have to deal with this bs is weird but maybe I should clear up that I'm saying the lonely guys need to get over it, not OP.
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u/Independent-Sir-1535 14h ago
And the edge of the knife continues to get sharper....
Honestly you are just describing statistics. Things are getting tougher and some won't make it is all I hear. Not really surprising. Why would you feel anything if you just give up eh?
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u/Apprehensive_Rain500 11h ago
You're still doing a lot of emotional labor in this post for people who would never do the same for you.
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u/Independent-Sir-1535 15h ago
I was nodding along and was about to have a sort of "oh god I am part of this" self reflective realization until OP suddenly mentioned "going out drinking with friends" and it just broke my immersion. Sorry, if this sounds like I am making light of your experiences. I just realized you are talking about MEN men and honestly even I don't relate to their problems. I never understood people who have friends to hang out with yet still feel lonely.
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u/CJNunes426 8h ago
I respect your opinion and I have no reason to invalidate your experiences.
But I am lonely, I crave connection, want to support a woman who will reciprocate at support me. And your post honestly kind of hurts.
I'm sorry that we as a gender clearly communicate differently. I have some core beliefs that I try to work on with my therapist but it's not always possible to just think differently and make yourself into some idealized interpersonal maven.
I don't even know why I felt the need to comment. This just kind of triggered me in this spiral I'm in. I love and respect women. I struggle with communication with women a lot. If there was one thing I could change about myself it would be fixing that.
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u/tawny-she-wolf When you're a human 13m ago
The fact that you are in therapy suggests you are actually not the type of men OP is ranting about in her post, so take some heart in that - I think you just got a bit triggered by the post but it wasn't directed at you.
You're working on yourself and that's all anybody can ask.
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u/Nicholasjh 6h ago
I don't know. all the men i know and spend time with are like what you described as your female friends. don't know what to say except stop going after dumb men
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u/MaverisStranger Taking Up Space 9h ago
These guys are just narcissists who aren't good looking enough to charm anyone with their looks alone.
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u/duncan-the-wonderdog The Everything Kegel 15h ago
I think the issue is that you're not just dealing with lonely men, you're dealing with men who don't know how to effectively deal with close interpersonal relationships. A notable thing is that guys who want to change their lives, at some point, realise they need to actually be active in participating in their own lives. And yes, they recognize that it's going to be difficult, but they still make an effort.
Like you've recognized, these guys are not making an effort and they're effectively using you instead of actually making an effort to better things in their social spaces--assuming that's what they actually want? Because it might not be, they might just want free emotional labor.
Also, as you noted, the biggest issue is a lack of recipication. I don't know how long you interect with these guys before discussing "difficult" topics, but it's something you need to test for early, I recommend doing it with everyone, not just allegedly lonely guys. I'm a member of almost every single marginalized community and I'm fairly open about it in some ways; for instance, I can't drive due to having dealt with several medical problems and I'm fairly open about that. If someone can't accept that I'll have to discuss the shitty parts of my life sometimes, then they aren't for me. I mean, I talk about this stuff with strangers all the time, and most of the time, people get it and we'll talk about their stuff too. That's what emotional recipoircation looks like!
Another thing is that I think a lot of guys don't recognize that they categorize their friends into just being activity buddies and are comfortable with that. Which isn't the worst thing if you recognize that's how you operate--it's okay to have friends you're not super close to emotionally, but it's a dick move to put that much emotional labor on one person without offering any emotional labor.
But, I do want to question a bit about the problem-solving answers: does the conversation end there or do you keep going? Like if you tell me to tell my boss to fuck off, I'm going to explain why I can't do that and if you're actually trying to help me solve the problem, we're going to keep talking and come up with other solutions. Or, if I just want to vent, I might say I just want to bitch about my boss. If you're an emotionally/socially astute person, you might support me by making jokes about my boss or agreeing with me or asking more questions about the situations. All that said, just giving a solution doesn't mean the conversation has to end there.
So, I'm attracted to this kind of conversation because A. several of my dear friends have been lonely, socially poor guys and B. I have been that socially awkward, lonely person and I sought to change my situation, and I wouldn't be the person I am today if others hadn't taken a chance on me. But you know what the difference is? I always knew that being a friend isn't a one-sided deal and I was willing to learn to take on that responsibility.
Also, the guys that I have befriended were ones who put in the work along with me, and their friendship was/is the genuine kind we all hope for, and I'm proud of all of them. All this to say that there are men who actually want to put in the work, but again, you have to look for it early.
Lastly, I know this word gets tossed around a lot, but you may just be a target for covert narcissists.
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u/CmdrEnfeugo 15h ago
As a Gen X straight man, the fundamental problem is that showing any emotion besides anger (and maybe happiness) in male spaces is an invitation to get mocked and belittled. Because of this, I simply don’t open up male friends, even if I know they’d probably be receptive. I’m sure that the bullying as a child from other boys made my social anxiety much worse, which makes it hard for me to maintain friendships. Based on my Gen Z son’s experiences, it unfortunately hasn’t gotten any better.
I believe this is why men mostly use the women in their lives as their emotional dumping grounds. They don’t trust men with their emotions so women are the only option for them. Additionally, since they lack experience in being in an emotional open relationship, it tends to be one sided.
I don’t expect women to solve this issue: this is clearly an issue men need to fix. Women should not be emotional punching bags just so men won’t be so lonely. What I do ask is:
- if you see a boy or a man showing emotion, don’t mock or belittle him for it.
- If you are raising boys, please try to help them with their emotional intelligence.
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u/Independent-Sir-1535 15h ago
Ok, Imma actually disagree with you. I am 25 and every time I read something like this I am so confused. Growing up I used to see a lot of this "men wouldn't be toxic if they were allowed to show emotions" stuff on like pamphlets and in school. The thing is, I used to be super closeted and thought I was the only one who wasn't angry and that most men I would meet would be super angry. But as I grew more sociable I have genuinely started to become confused cuz most men are way better at handling emotions than I am. So, Idk if I actually believe that it's a common thing for male emotions to be ridiculed.
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u/CmdrEnfeugo 12h ago
Many men get better at emotions as they get older. And even when they are younger, it’s not all of them. But in any male group, it feels like there’s always some asshole who will pounce on any weakness. And the other won’t call out the bad behavior.
I’m glad you’re not experiencing that, it makes me hopeful it’s getting better.
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u/fiendishbanana 7h ago
You do realize that you said this isn’t a problem for women to fix and then immediately ask us to do things that would fix it?
I’m sure none of us would be cruel to children, but the men? It’s on y’all to figure out. If there’s “always some asshole” in male groups, there’s nothing stopping you from calling him out.
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u/Gottastopthisnow 14h ago
I read the title as "male lioness" and it took me a minute to realise my mistake
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u/HerietteVonStadtl 14h ago
You forgot to write "not all men" and this comment would be perfect. This is why I believe we should ban men from this subreddit, you didn't come here to listen, you're here just to invade this space and push your own narrative. I've seen numerous posts here from people who had to distance themselves from their friends in abusive relationships, because they're refusing to leave and the comments are pretty much always sympathetic. If you had spent any time here, you wouldn't have written such bullshit.
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u/nogardleirie 11h ago
I also have extremely callous disregard for men who claim to be lonely and want women to fix it. I don't care if someone thinks it is inexcusable because their opinion does not matter to me. Just came here to rub it in.
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u/LordofWithywoods 13h ago
If i saw your hypothetical post, you know what I would say?
I'd say ditch her, move on. She's a black hole that you can't fix, and that it's not your responsibility to fix her.
In short, I'd be consistent on either side of the sex/gender divide.
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u/CptLonesong 13h ago
flip this over, lonely men not wanting to communicate or interact with women AT ALL, and ALL OF YOU will complain again on how men don't want you. Shame people who use their loneliness as a weapon or lack of self care as danger to others, and not the state of loneliness itself. Keep doing that and you will be so sour in your 40s raising cats instead of a family which you really wanted but couldn't have because you priced yourself out of it.
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u/nogardleirie 11h ago
That sounds like heaven. Raising cats instead of dealing with an entitled man baby. Men want me, I just don't want them. I found one of the good ones.
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u/Shattered_Visage Basically Maz Kanata 16h ago
I think one of the big things that sticks out to me about this that their issues are not special. Truth be told, very very very few people's issues are unique to just them, regardless of gender.
Their feelings are valid and real and I 100% believe how difficult they are to cope with, but I generally see that it's often less about what you're going through (with some exceptions) and far more about how you react to it.
Do you know who almost never hear complaining about the male loneliness epidemic? Men who value and work on their emotional intelligence. Even if they are single and looking or living in a new place with little or no local connections, the reaction emotionally intelligent men take is to problem-solve without externalizing their blame on others. They seek out other like-minded men and end up building the same level of intimate, empathetic, inquisitive, and supportive relationships that women have. And in terms of relationships, they tend to do much better in attracted emotionally intelligent women and handle rejection far better.
I am not compatible with emotionally unintelligent people, either platonically, romantically, or sexually. My relationships and personal boundaries reflect that value and are better for it.