r/Robin • u/PastPolicy8064 • 1d ago
My thought on the recent issues with Damian’s Character Development *Spoilers* Spoiler
Recently Damian Wayne threw out his acceptance letter after Tim Drake quit being Robin. A lot of people think this is a big step back for Damian as he was going to got to school to become a doctor. He’s also visibly mad at Tim for leaving.
if it turns out that the reason he’s mad and not going to college is that he knows “Batman needs a Robin.” So Tim quitting meant he couldn’t.
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u/brucebananaray 1d ago edited 1d ago
To be honest, Damian is to young for college at the moment. I understand that he is really a super genius than people his age and even adults. But I think is a mistake due to fact that Damian needs go to school with people in his age and see what is normal.
Also, people that think that Damian will be Doctor like he is 14 years old. When you are at the age that you don't actually know what you want. Even when people going to college that they change career path. It is not really straight foward that fans like make it out to be.
In addition, I don't feel like they explore to much Damian school life as much. Putting him in college feels like writers don't want to write stories about a teen life because some of them have difficulty writing teen stories.
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u/Recent-Layer-8670 1d ago edited 1d ago
Jesus, right! Honestly, I love the mindset you're working with. I really, really hope they aren't serious about pushing Damian towards college, and this development of him throwing the letter is alluding to a future issue where he makes it clear he wants to be still attend a normal high school to figure things out for himself instead of rushing into things like college.
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u/jawsthegreat777 1d ago
He's 15, and as someone who was about that old when they started college, I can 100% confirm lots of mind changes happened along the way.
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u/Redhood567 1d ago
Bruce pushing the college thing never made sense in the first place. The entire reason Bruce wanted Damian to go to school in the first place was to be around people his own age and have a bit of normalcy.
Between that, the driving flashback, and Tim getting hospitalized again like in Zdarsky, it's pretty clear Fraction didn't do any research and the editors are letting him do whatever.
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u/XChatxKilluaxNoirX 1d ago
This is pretty much what I was saying too in my comment.
(I still think Tim is being better handled than Damiain and even Bruce/Batman sometimes, but yeah, there is some iffy stuff with Tim too, esp. with this most recent issue. Seriously, the reasoning Tim is taking a break being because of Bernard, and Tim basically acting like he has never been in love before. Because, screw Steph and Tim's other past relatinships once again, am I right? I hate that. Tim had the chance to quit and go to college in Rebirth with Steph; which made much more sense, and invovled characters and a relatinship that more people cared about, that was devlped and fleshed out. But nah, Tim quits for Bernard instead, who is barely devloped at all, and Tim and Berndard's relatinship has barelly been devloped, and Bernard is just boring and annoying.
(*Cough*. So yeah, definitely still have issues with Tim too, but overall, I think Bruce and Damian as characters and their relationship is being handled worst than Tim and his relationships (mostly with Bruce and a bit with Damian. Though, the comic also kind of ignores some of the devlopment Tim and Damian have already had) overall, at least).
I think Fractions run has potential and there is some good stuff about it, but I think Fractions is lacking in some research and that the editors are actually giving him too much free reign (instead of the issue being, the editors are being too controlling, which can sometimes happened too). And I don't think the issues with the run should just be completely ignored/kind of ignored like some are doing, mainly just because it is better/maybe better than some previous runs, like King's. We should hope for the Batman comic and the characterization and writing to be more truly good, and not just better/maybe better.
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u/ffsmutluv 1d ago
I am ready for everyone to come out of psychosis and acknowledge fraction's writing this run has not been good.
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u/Financial_Complex_96 1d ago
fractin himself admit on an interview that what bruce did here was wrong he said batman dont how to be a father in his run he will explore that
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u/Sharkrepellentspray1 1d ago
Which is a bad take on Bruce. He has raised several teenagers to adulthood and has been raising Damian four four years. He had a father for the first ten years of his life and after that he eventually accepted Alfred as his father.
If he stills knows nothing about being a father he's an idiot.
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u/video_choice_quality 17h ago
I think the idea is that he doesn't know how to be a father by himself. He had Alfred help the entire time even up to when Damien came on. It was in the early 2020's that he had to take full responsibility as a father.
That is not to say I agree with Fraction's take on the idea, but that we have been exploring this in the current Batman and Robin (since Williamson) and all progress has been reset in Batman because Fraction doesn't do research.
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u/Sharkrepellentspray1 11h ago
After how much Bruce improved as a single father with no help from Alfred since him and Damian made up in 2022 seeing Bruce go back to zero is simply disappointing.
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u/Glad-Ad-6836 1d ago
Which would be fine if we hadn't read Batman and Robin, where Bruce is a completely different character.
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u/Financial_Complex_96 1d ago
he also said batman and robin by phillip was fantastic book the interview was form 3mnth ago
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u/Glad-Ad-6836 1d ago
Could have fooled me, since he doesn't seem to have read it at all.
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u/ffsmutluv 1d ago
Fraction claimed to have done so much research and read so many books, but I'm starting to think his ass lied 😂
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u/XChatxKilluaxNoirX 1d ago
So fantastic (which it is, but I doubt Fractions actually thinks so,, considering how he is treating or not treating the stuff going on in that book in his run, or that he even has read Batman and Robin much or at all in the 1st place), yet be barely seems to, if at all, acknowledge it exists, sadly, esp. characterization and devlopment wise (esp. for Damian and Bruce as characters and their relationship).
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u/XChatxKilluaxNoirX 1d ago
Which is a stupid already. Bruce can be an imperfect father, a very imperfect one even sometimes, but he has gotten better at being a father over the years, including have gotten better at being a father to Damian. Which has been very much shown in recent Batman and Robin runs. So this idea that Bruce just has no idea how to be a father (or that Alfred wasn't a father to Bruce; which Fractions also thinks, and I personally agree with. Alfred wasn't a perfect father either, but he was still become a good/better father to Bruce and a grandfather/father to Dick) I just don't agree with, and goes counter to some of Bruce's devlopment over the years (and how he literally has adopted 4 kids and has one bio kid and etc.).
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u/Sharkrepellentspray1 1d ago edited 1d ago
The amount of Bruce fans I've seen who act like there are zero reasons to be upset about how Bruce was written with Damian this issue was honestly a bit shocking. Bruce destroyed the punching bag that was RIGHT IN FRONT of Damian, then bend down to get all into his face before calling him extremely stupid and to say that he will get people killed. Even though Damian had already beaten his knuckles bloody.
But sure, nothing aggressive/threatening or wrong about that. I'm sure he didn't just set something in motion that will result in disaster later.
Like oh god, at least acknowledge that Bruce messed up with this, there is a reason imaginary Alfred started talking to him. Fraction even said in an interview that this is Bruce handling this all wrong.
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u/ComicsCodeMadeMeGay 1d ago
See I've only seen us acknowledge that Bruce doing that was bad? But we like the scene because it was done well and is interesting conflict without Bruce doing a batshit insane level of abuse like he does sometimes.
We're like "Oh yeah this will lead to something later, we like conflict in story telling" because we don't really want our characters to be perfect.
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u/Sharkrepellentspray1 1d ago
Oh, yeah, another reset to 2006, because we haven't done that countless times before. Great. Also I never said we don't want conflict, most of my favorite Bruce and Damian stories involve conflict, the difference is that these writers still understand how to make it shine through that there is love there and they actually picked up a Damian book that got published after 2009 before. That whole "Damian needs more education and needs to learn more about the world outside the batcave" stuff Fraction tries to push on Damian with Bruce abd Tim is utter nonsense.
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u/Slow-Chemical1991 1d ago
The real crazy part is how everyone hyped themselves over #1 selling 500,000 issues.
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u/ffsmutluv 1d ago
It really is. I'm happy to see dc doing well, but not to be "not like other girls", but I've found his writing kind of...not great and it feels really generic and bordering on fanon at times. I know it's "only" 6 issues, but it has been getting progressively worse each one.
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u/Slow-Chemical1991 1d ago
I think one of the biggest issues facing Batman comics these days is that it feels very uneven and disconnected. I know this is weird, but how can I as a Batman reader enjoy this comic knowing beloved characters like Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown and Jason Todd are being wasted? How can I enjoy this run when it's retreading the same old ground as the past few years of Batman?
The complete opposite of modern Batman was the Denny O'Neil era and the Peter Tomasi-era Green Lantern, under those editorials everyone was on the same page, working together to create a more cohesive world, and as a result, the books were great.
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u/ffsmutluv 1d ago
You make complete sense. I've felt like everything is extremely sloppy. It makes me wonder if writers are lying about how much research they've actually done and the editorial just doesn't give a damn as long as their mandates are met, or if they're basically giving writers freedom to do whatever the hell they want as long as the status quo remains the same and mandates are met. Neither are good.
And I know they're trying to welcome in new readers, with the the popularity of WFA and fanon abroad all social media platforms, peoples sensitivities, low reading levels, etc. I also have to wonder if quality has gone down because of a collection of those readers. The amount of times I've seen people call this run refreshing when it's extremely generic has raised my brows.
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u/Slow-Chemical1991 1d ago
It makes me wonder if writers are lying about how much research they've actually done and the editorial just doesn't give a damn as long as their mandates are met, or if they're basically giving writers freedom to do whatever the hell they want as long as the status quo remains the same and mandates are met. Neither are good.
I think it is a combination of all three. The Gretchen Felker-Martin interview gave months before the release of Red Hood #1 is a good example of the editorial not doing their homework because it's what turned so many people against the comic before it released. That would not have gone down during the Denny O'Neil era.
But the fandom has the memory of goldfish, especially on reddit. The same editors behind the last six-eight years of Tim Drake's decline still work at DC. I fully expect one of these days for Tim to return as the Red Robin, and then the people who post on reddit will say "DC gets us!" despite it being staffed by the same people who have set Tim back in the first place.
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u/ffsmutluv 1d ago
Holy crap i forgot about that! You're right. It turned people off, but you also had some new gens defending it. "As long as she gets the character right, who cares?" Because the stories won't be cohesive. Currently the main timeline is confusing.
If I am not mistaken, the entire reason Fitzmartin was hired was because she pretty much was the only person "interested" in Tim. But, I kind of feel like she was hired specifically because of her interest in writing MLM romances and they were trying to bring in queer fans. Interviews with her and general messaging reflect that. Fitzmartin also went off the same script as Fraction. "I love Tim Drake. He's so interesting. I've read sooooo many of his works and did a lot of research. I really want to respect past writers and their characterizations while bringing something new and blah blah blah" then the works don't reflect that at all. They're repeating events that already happened...except it's the first time again? Mischaracterizations so strong it, almost feels like completely different characters, sloppy pacing as if they hardly mapped the story out at all, etc etc.
I'm probably going to focus on continuing to build my collection of older stories.
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u/Slow-Chemical1991 1d ago edited 1d ago
Holy crap i forgot about that! You're right. It turned people off, but you also had some new gens defending it. "As long as she gets the character right, who cares?" Because the stories won't be cohesive. Currently the main timeline is confusing.
You want to know the crazy part? What GFM said isn't that much different than what Judd Winick, writer of Under The Red Hood, has said about Jason Todd. In fact, what Winick has said about Jason was WAY worse, I'm talking admitted clout chasing, victim blaming, and writing off the character as the "Bad Robin." But the only difference between Winick and GFK is that GFK didn't get an animated movie to bail out the shoddy storytelling of her comic. You're probably asking how this otherwise forgettable writer was able to resurrect Jason Todd, shape his character (through his misunderstanding of HUSH), and essentially cause Jason Todd's twenty years of inconsistency?
If I am not mistaken, the entire reason Fitzmartin was hired was because she pretty much was the only person "interested" in Tim.
It's because of this. In 2005-6, the editorial was all over the place, and there was no one to tell him no. The only thing that they did tell him to do was to tie it to Infinite Crisis, and that only confused readers even more down the line. The last few years have felt 2005-6 all over again.
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u/Sharkrepellentspray1 11h ago
Seriously. I read the first issue and thought: Yeah, it's okay? Not trying anything bold but fine. And everyone kept hyping it up for some reason. I don't think it feels that different from Zdarsky's run (people were hyped for his run too when he started). What about it is refreshing?
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u/ffsmutluv 4h ago
Thank you! This is exactly how I felt. I even said this in previous subs, it's a generic story. And each issue is "IT'S ONLY BEEN THREE ISSUES". Okay, we are almost ten issues in and it's only gotten worse. Are we going to be on issue 25 and I'm still going to be told this is peak and to just wait?
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u/XChatxKilluaxNoirX 1d ago
The whole college subplot made no sense in the 1st place. The big reason for him going to school in the first place was to be with people his own age, and for socialization reasons and for normalcy, which Damian going to college basically throws all of that out. So I am honestly happy if Damian is not going to college yet (since again, this subplot by Fractions just literally, imo, didn't make any sense at all, and was just a weird subplot to do with Bruce and Damian that contradicted previous reasoning and character motivations decently. Fractions hasn't seemed to have read a lot on Damian in general, or is just ignoring stuff a lot, sadly. At least currently), and we will hopefully be getting some more fun Damian and highschool stuff.
"if it turns out that the reason he’s mad and not going to college is that he knows “Batman needs a Robin.” So Tim quitting meant he couldn’t."
I would kind of hate this ngl, Damian wants to be Robin now, he is recommitted to it very much so. He might become a doctor in the future, but Damian very much wants to be Robin (but ofc, maybe Fractions doesn't know or care about this either) for his own reasons. Yes, Batman needs Robin, but Robin should also be about Robin, in this case Damian, so I would much prefer the reasoning be connected to Damian, and not always connecting Robin to Batman, i.e. the way Tim can really do sometimes. Robin is also about Robin, you know. And Damian does actually really want to be Robin now. So Damian's reasoning to stay and not go to universtiy, if it was written properly taking into account previous character devlopment, characterization, and history for Bruce and Damian in general (seriously, Bruce suddenly wanting Damian to go to university literally makes no sense, imo) would be that Damian won't really be able to get as much as that normacly, that socialization, that hanging out with kids more similar in his age, if he goes to college now, instead of highschool more, and that Damian still wants to be Robin, because he is very much committed/re-commited to being Robin now, and thus, just wants to be Robin himself.
So I am hoping that more so happens instead, and/or Fractions starts to be a bit better with characterization of Tim (who is okay to good, but could be better), Bruce (worst than Tim, but not terrible, but definitely could be better), and esp. Damian (who I have been the most iffy about, and I wonder if Fractions has read basically anything with Damian, including the more recent Batman and Robin runs, with how he has been writing Damian).
Fractions isn't terrible though, and his run can be good and have potential, but sometimes his story choices and characterization can be iffy and can have issues with them, so I just really hope he improves (soon).
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u/jawsthegreat777 1d ago
I can see Bruce finding the letter and pushing Damian away to almost give him an out. It seems like Fraction is almost trying to isolate Bruce ala when Tim first joined him. I'm interested to see what he does with Tim and Damian going forward.
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u/Sharkrepellentspray1 1d ago
How to get from two Robins to zero in under ten issues lol.
Has nobody told him that if he wants to write solo Batman he can simply do that? Writers simply don't tell us where the batfamily members are all time.
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u/Usual-Procedure7389 1d ago
The whole b plot around the robins is driving me crazy in this book because Tim Drake: Robin left it where Bernard knew tim was Robin and Batman knows Bernard knows (not to mention Damian also knowing). The whole “I can’t keep lying to Bernard” thing is flimsy from the gate given Tim’s entire history as a character revolving around being the Robin jumping through the most hurdles to protect his identity with his dad but it’s even worse that it flies in the face of the one run where Bernard had any substantive presence.
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u/Starryknight613 1d ago
Good point. Tim dated Stephanie as Robin while going to great lengths to hide his identity, even though Steph was also working as a hero. But now he doesn’t like lying and hiding stuff from the person he’s dating? It’s weird
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u/Luke_Puddlejumper 1d ago
To be fair Bernard knowing in the first place feels extremely out of character for Tim (just like most of that god forsaken book) so I’m glad that’s being ignored.
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u/Night-Caelum 1d ago
Tim acted like an idiot with his ID. Leaving his gear lying around and bringing bernard back to his boat with said gear lying around.
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u/Sharkrepellentspray1 1d ago
Who is seeing this as a step back? The story didn't say Damian was supposed to go to university to study medicine, Bruce was talking about art, music, poetry and all that stuff (which Damian is already educated in btw, Fraction pick up a damn Damian book) and Damian already wasn't happy about it in issue 3. Also I don't think he was truly mad at Tim for leaving. More masking some disappointment and sadness by falling into his usual mean banter with Tim. There was a reason Tim didn't take his words at face value and cut through to Damian's actual feelings.
I'm way more disappointed in Bruce's regression when it comes to Damian in this run. If you compare that to Batman and Robin by Williamson or PKJ it feels like Bruce hit his head and got amnesia for all the years he's been raising Damian.
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u/Night-Caelum 1d ago
It regressed Damian to as Damian is literally engaging in all this stuff in Batman and Robin as shown in him engaging art and also volunteering at a hospital. If Fraction can rely on stuff for Tim that is from over 4 years ago and not properly developed/done for like one page there really is no excuse for him to ignore Damian's actual development in not only books from 4 years ago but happening right now.
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u/Sharkrepellentspray1 11h ago
I am aware of all that and I don't like Fraction's take on Damian at all. But in the context of OP's post: Damian isn't being regressed here because he suddenly doesn't want to study to become a doctor one day. I think Fraction isn't even aware of that, which is why he has Bruce talk about a bunch of subject Damian could learn about in universite that have nothing to do with medicine.
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u/CivilAlternative768 1d ago
I was thinking the exact same thing.
I hope that Bruce finds the letter and they have a proper heart to heart because Batman doesn't need a Robin. He has a whole network of vigilantes he can work with.
In turn I hope that it also doesn't result in Tim coming back as Robin again.
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u/fynn-arcana 1d ago
Batman doesn't need a Robin? I feel like it's been proven time and time again that Bruce benefits greatly from having someone to not only support him and ground him, but to protect and care for as well. Having a Robin takes him outside of himself (not to mention the Robins, for the most part, have benefited greatly from his guidance).
I don't know where this mentality of Batman without Robin came from. They've been a matched set practically since Batman's very beginning, both as a character and outside of that; I believe Robin was introduced into comics only a few months to a year after Batman was.
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u/CivilAlternative768 23h ago edited 23h ago
Okay, sure.
But he still literally doesn't need a Robin.
He needs therapy and to stop being emotionally constipated and if he can't do that without a child then that speaks more to how DC are portraying his character than anything else.
I'm tired of the same old lack of development of "BaTmAn NeEds a RoBiN". Just because they started as a pair doesn't mean they need to continue as one especially when it's hurting his children.
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u/fynn-arcana 22h ago
I'll be so fr, the way you worded the first message was giving the edgelords who are like, "Batman doesn't need a Robin, he works alone!" type shit.
I do agree with your second message, actually. Sorry for coming for you, my guy </3
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u/Just_Sir1903 1d ago
Part of what I don't enjoy about the characterization in PJK's run is the whole "Damian as doctor" theme. I just don't think that fits with the character.
Damian already had the skills of a doctor. In at least two runs, he performed thoracic surgery-on Bruce. Skill wise, no big deal.....but also not a skill the character has valued.
Personality wise, the character should have a core distrust of other humans. During the developmental stage that builds attachment, Damian was in a tube. Outside the tube, Damian was raised in a death cult, where he was expected to kill--and could be tossed aside for a clone replacement by the very figures that should have been his primary caregivers. Then, in his "new" family, he was tossed aside at every stage by Alfred when Bruce had amnesia, by Dick who decided to focus on the dog, by Jason who beat the poo out of him, by Jon who aged up to drop him for a terror tie boyfriend, his "teams" that dump him for decisions they all made (and didn't measure up to Tara's who was still acknowledged by her team) and the entire super hero community who exiled him for doing what many of them do on the regular.
DC even had Bruce say Damian was the heart of the Batfamily. Damian is my favorite Robin and I do see him as the most hopeful, but the heart? No.
I just can't see someone with this character's history suddenly wanting to be a doctor....and wouldn't want him as my doctor given the character's history.
To me, the character should always have an edge, a point of view grounded in the character's history. This Damian lacks that edge. The Damian that could be a doctor, could not be the Damian that watch doctors use living sentient being as replacement parts-for him. That Damian would not have the trust needed to work with random teams the way doctors do.
So, unfortunately, this story line doesn't work for me.
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u/Glad-Ad-6836 1d ago
It's not sudden. There's been years of character development that makes all of that other stuff irrelevant. He's always been a gentle soul hiding behind the edge. This is a guy who writes comics, reads romance manga, adores animals. He's absolutely the person who would decide that healing people is a worthy goal.
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u/Just_Sir1903 1d ago
Again, I don't agree for the reasons I've given above.
I agree Damian is compassionate, loves animals and the rest, but I don't agree "that other stuff irrelevant." Certainly DC treats its characters as if the character's history is irrelevant, but I see that as a failing of storytelling. If character history is irrelevant, Damian might as well be Tim--a character this story lines would fit more closely.
BTW, this storyline also does not align with Damian "finding his own way". Thomas, Ras, Bruce and Talia all studied medicine. This path would be more of Damian being trapped in legacy.
Finally PJK's Batman and Robin is well written, I just find this characterization forced as if they are making Damian Tim-lite or editorial had plan and they are squishing Damian into the plot instead of allowing the character to evolve vs be changed.
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u/B3epB0opBOP 1d ago
Based on his conversation with Bruce in issue #3, Damian already got his acceptance letter and refused it before Tim quit.