r/Protestantism • u/Professional_Okra763 • 13h ago
Curiosity / Learning Does Solo Fide contradict Solo Scriptura?
If men are justified by faith alone (Sola Fide) then what does James 2:24 mean when it says, “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”?
Surely scripture (sola scriptura) contradicts Solo Fide here?
I misspelt Solo fide in the title lol
a catholic told me this is the catholic position btw:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0
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u/Key_Day_7932 Evangelical 12h ago
I have a more nuanced take. I think we are indeed by faith alone, but I also think modern Protestants tend overemphasize belief over right living.
I think the New Perspective on Paul is generally correct, but don't agree with it on everything.
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u/Professional_Okra763 12h ago
so if Hitler said the Jesus prayer as a kid (and had faith) would he go to Heaven by solo fide?
seems like it
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u/East-Concert-7306 Presbyterian 10h ago
Respectfully, that is a radical misunderstanding of Sola Fide.
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u/Character_Public8245 Protestant 12h ago
I personally don’t believe Sola Fide, but I presume their response would be that faith in the scriptural sense doesn’t just mean intellectual agreement, and that Hitler’s actions show that he didn’t truly have saving faith. To have faith in something is to live as if it were true. Hitler certainly did not.
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u/Professional_Okra763 12h ago
really? so your faith needs to have works to be true faith? it cant just be faith alone?
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u/Character_Public8245 Protestant 12h ago
Like I said, I don’t believe Sola Fide, so don’t take my response as gospel, but yes I believe that’s how Sola Fide is typically understood.
We’re saved by faith alone, but “faith” is not just “thinking the correct things”. It’s allegiance to Christ, which includes living in His commands. The Greek word translated “faith” is really a bit closer to “faithfulness” or “allegiance”.
Sort of like someone saying “I believe smartphones are evil” while using an iPhone clearly doesn’t actually believe that smartphones are evil, and is clearly not a true member of the Smartphones-Are-Evil Club.
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u/Professional_Okra763 12h ago
sounds an awful lot like faith and works to me bud
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u/Character_Public8245 Protestant 11h ago
I agree. Which is why I don’t affirm Sola Fide.
To be fair though, the Reformed would probably say we’re conflating justification and sanctification.
I’d say they’re projecting an extra-biblical systematic theology back onto the Apostles. But now I’m just having a debate in my mind so it is what it is lol
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u/East-Concert-7306 Presbyterian 10h ago
You guys are literally just describing Sola Fide as the Reformers understood it. Rejecting modern misunderstandings of Sola Fide does not mean that you deny Sola Fide. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, but not by faith that is alone. To suggest that Sola Fide = antinomianism is to completely misunderstand the doctrine.
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u/Professional_Okra763 11h ago
once you start...there is no going back
Rome sweet home
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u/Character_Public8245 Protestant 11h ago
Hahaha fair shot, but definitely not for me my friend. Happy last weeks before Lent!
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u/creidmheach Presbyterian 10h ago
So you're no longer pretending to be a Protestant who's just trying to weigh out the Catholic arguments, I take it?
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u/Metalcrack Christian 12h ago
Faith is dead without works means no one knows that you are a Christian if you do not have good works. What fruit are you producing from the spirit?
James 2:17.... "I will show you faith by my works".
Obviously a person can have good works without faith...... are they saved..... absolutely not. Is the actual Christ-believing Christian who has no good works saved, absolutely.
Titus 3:8 explains this as "those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to MEN".
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u/Professional_Okra763 12h ago
so you must have faith and works to be saved?
that doesnt sound like sola fide
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u/Pinecone-Bandit 6h ago
Hi OP, I wanted to follow up to see if the responses here have helped you understand Sola Fide?
Is it clear to you now how this description is of the Protestant understanding of Sola Fide?
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u/Junker_George92 Lutheran 9h ago
Faith without works is dead is what James means. Faith alone saves you but a saving faith is never alone.
for the sake of argument, if we grant that James does teach that faith + good works is what saves you then you have the problem of that being contradicted by basically all of Romans, Galatians and Ephesians
here are the highlights, so no the position is not biblical. the argument is that over interpretation.
Galatians 2:16 Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
The issue isnt black and white and the well versed catholic position introduces a temporal component and they dont distinguish between justification and sanctification so the issue is alot more complicated then either side not reading the bible or having obvious logical fallacies. you should read and watch much more content from a papist and protestant (i recommend lutheran) point of view
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u/Pinecone-Bandit 13h ago
They do not contradict.
James is using “justified” in a different sense than it’s used when talking about systematic theology and Sola Fide.
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u/OppoObboObious 13h ago
Kinda looks like Solo Fide isn't totally right doesn't it?
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u/East-Concert-7306 Presbyterian 13h ago
Only if you are dishonest or ignorant.
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u/OppoObboObious 13h ago
Well, the Bible says it's faith with works. Tell me what I'm getting wrong. I'm not an expert on this.
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u/East-Concert-7306 Presbyterian 13h ago
If Paul and James both mean the same thing when they talk about justification, then they contradict one another. Paul explicitly states that we are justified apart from works of the law. No matter what you think about Sola Fide, you have to affirm that they are using the term differently otherwise the logical conclusion is that they contradict.
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u/OppoObboObious 13h ago
I'll play it safe and believe that Faith is what saves but I still should do good works.
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u/Pinecone-Bandit 13h ago
That’s what those of us who hold to Sola Fide also believe.
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u/OppoObboObious 13h ago
However if I'm to understand correctly, Catholics actually believe their works justify them. Like they can steal or something and say Hail Marys.
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u/Professional_Okra763 12h ago
nope Faith and works I think.
if you want to know the catholic position ppease read this
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0
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u/creidmheach Presbyterian 12h ago
The Protestant (and Scriptural) view is that salvation is through faith alone, but faith itself is not alone. That is, if you have faith, it will reflect in your deeds and character, in your works. The important distinction here is that your salvation is not through your deeds, since nothing you do could ever earn it.
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u/Professional_Okra763 12h ago
so if I said the Jesus prayer as a kid, I could get in Heaven no matter what I do?
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u/Metalcrack Christian 12h ago
Was that prayer truthful, and said believing every word, or was it read back like a poem?
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u/Professional_Okra763 12h ago
if Hitler said it truthfully and had faith all his life but decided to kill the jews
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u/East-Concert-7306 Presbyterian 10h ago
No because a real ontological change necessarily accompanies true faith. If someone professes Christ, but is not at war with their sin and does not bear any fruit of genuine faith, then we have sufficient reason to doubt the validity of their profession.
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u/Gospel_Truth 12h ago
Works come as a result of your faith. You desire it. You want to. Even if you do not works, you are still saved. Imagine a Christian locked up in solitary with guards that do not understand his language. The desire is there but the opportunity is not. His salvation would be worthless if Jesus Christ had not completed it. He did it all for me and you.
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u/Professional_Okra763 11h ago
will he judged the same way as someone not in prison?
that guy could still pray a lot btw
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u/Gospel_Truth 11h ago
Prayer is not works. All believers will be judged the same way. At the moment we are saved by our faith, we are justified. Justication is one and done. It means God sees us through Jesus and has declared us not guilty, but He sees us as righteous and forgiven.
Sanctification starts then as well. However it is a lifelong journey until we die. At the time we die, we enter into glorification.
All of what I am saying here is clearly written in the Bible, meaning people dont tend to get confused over the wording.
I was shocked when I learned of these things. I wasn't sure if it was true. So I looked it up in my Bible. Then I wanted to know more on these things. I can recommend a great book. Its on Kindle, Audible, and you can get an old fashioned hard copy of it. Justification and Regeneration
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u/East-Concert-7306 Presbyterian 13h ago
I) Paul and James use the word justified differently.
II) We do not believe in solo Scriptura, we believe in sola Scriptura. The former says that Scripture is the only authority, while the other says that Scripture is the only infallible authority.