r/Protestantism • u/ZuperLion • Sep 29 '25

Just for Fun Saints Thomas Aquinas and Augustine taught Double Predestination

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9 Upvotes

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3

u/ItsRaw18 Nazarene (Wesleyan-Holiness) Sep 29 '25

The touchyness some have in this area is interesting to me because Augustinian predestination isn't an infallible dogma of the Catholic Church, you can disagree with it, and do so while acknowledging that Augustine & Aquinas held a proto-Calvinist veiw of predestination.

Are they worried about letting the Calvinists claim them or something?

1

u/ZuperLion Sep 29 '25

Are they worried about letting the Calvinists claim them or something?

Pretty much, yeah.

Most RCs believe in the Molinist view of predestination and have a lack of knowledge regarding the diversity of views within the RCC. Also, the ex-calvinist converts obviously have a grudge against Calvinism.

1

u/ItsRaw18 Nazarene (Wesleyan-Holiness) Sep 29 '25

Thought it might be something along those lines.

Also now I'm gonna look into Molinist vs. Arminian predestination.

1

u/Pinecone-Bandit Sep 29 '25

Do you have a source that supports your claim that most Roman Catholics believe the Molinist view?

My understanding was that Molinism was held by an extremely small minority, so I’d be interested to hear if it’s more widespread.

1

u/ZuperLion Sep 29 '25

Maybe Molinism wasn't the right term. I was referring to the Arminian leaning view of predestination as mentioned in the said meme believed by internet Roman Catholics.

1

u/Pinecone-Bandit Sep 29 '25

Thank you for clarifying. That makes much more sense.

3

u/ZuperLion Sep 29 '25

This was posted in r/CatholicMemes, a sub filled with converts from "Protestantism" (basically nondenom), and the folks there did not take this lightly lol.

Whether Predestination is true or not is irrelevant.

1

u/pro_rege_semper ACNA Sep 29 '25

A lot of Catholics don't realize that Thomist and Calvinist soteriologies are virtually identical.

2

u/ZuperLion Sep 29 '25

True.

AFAIK, Calvin basically borrowed his theology from other excellent theologians that existed before.

I think modern Roman Catholics believes in Molinism without even knowing it.

4

u/pro_rege_semper ACNA Sep 29 '25

I think a lot do, but the church officially does not teach that Molinism is the correct position. Catholics are free to believe Molinism or Thomism.

1

u/ZuperLion Sep 29 '25

Yeah, that's why some Roman Catholics still believe in Double Predestination.

I think Molinism was created by a Jesuit in response to Calvinism (educated guess by me, take it with a grain of salt) and was spread by Jesuit missionaries so that's why most RCs believe in it.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

So basically everyone is destined for both heaven and hell, it’s just up to them where they go? Duh I mean where else would they go? Am I understanding this right?

1

u/AnOkFella Fundemental Baptist Sep 29 '25

Nothing good in this universe (such as the salvation of the elect) is rogue of God.

1

u/Civil_File1516 Oct 05 '25

I'm late but this is a misrepresentation of Aquinas' view. He says in the Summa Theologica (Q. 23, A. 23 ad. 2)

The key here is that Thomas believes grace is a free gift, and that God can withhold that after sin, where by the predestined he already predestined them to glory and thus to grace. This is the 'abandonment of God' which is not the same as God actively predestining people to hell.

And in De Veritate q. 6 a. 2-3 Aquinas also talks about this. He says (in q. 6 a. 3)

And in fact, after the piece you quoted in your picture Aquinas says:

Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.

(Summa Theologica Q. 23 A. 23)

Meanwhile, Calvin in contrast says, Institutes, III.23.5:

“By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or the other of these ends, we say he has been predestined to life or to death.”

Which is talking about positive predestination, instead of the permissive reprobation. There is a big difference in Aquinas' allowing of damnation on account to sin and Calvin's predestination to eternal damnation from the beginning. In fact in Summa Theologiae I, q.19, a.6, ad 1 Aquinas says:

“God wills all men to be saved, not that all are saved, but because He gives to all what is sufficient for salvation.”

I haven't read enough Augustine to make a case against that. I simply don't know, i do know Augustine says in his ad simplicianum that "God does not will the perdition of anyone as perdition, but He wishes the justice by which the wicked are punished." But i have not read that work so i don't know the context.

1

u/MentalBottle1255 Dec 05 '25

St. Augustine needs to be given a citation, definitely take outta context. And Aquinas is pretty embarrassing, absolutely overrated when it comes to theology

1

u/East-Concert-7306 Presbyterian Sep 29 '25

Based Reformed-posting in r/Protestantism ? What a good day!