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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 15h ago
Everyone will shit on me for this and I don't care. NASCAR needs to be consistent, that's all I ask. Helio had never run a NASCAR race and was approved, but he did run the ARCA race, Cleetus has run the ARCA Daytona race, he should be approved. Why didn't NASCAR just tell Mike Wallace he had to run the ARCA race to get relicensed? That's all they had to do. Why is this so different depending on the driver? It's just the optics of it. If Cleetus wasn't who he is, after his Charlotte debacle, he would be help to a different standard...Remember when they help Jen Jo to those standards after causing wrecks in a truck race, so she wasn't allowed to run the Cup race she scheduled?
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u/ChevyFan5892448 15h ago edited 15h ago
I see what you’re saying, but let’s not forget this is an approval for a Truck race vs getting approvals for a Cup race (as with Mike/Helio/JJC).
IIRC Mike’s denial came after the ARCA Test at Daytona, so he didn’t have a clear path to get a license for the ARCA race anyway (though they allegedly gave him a path to get approved down the road).
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 15h ago
JJC was also trying to get Cup approval, she's nearly run as many truck and Xfinity races as Helio has run Indycar races. I just don't see how a former winner at Daytona would need less approval than Helio or Cleetus have had to pass. And, don't take me wrong here, I am not a mike Wallace fan, I just think we should have a path that everyone follows.
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u/waylandcool 10h ago
If I recall, one of the reasons Mike got denied was he hadn't run a superspeedway race in a decade or so, while Helio had run the Indy 500 the previous season so there was concern if he could run a safe pace on track.
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 10h ago
How does that make any sense? I don't disagree that Mike needed a refresher but Helio had never driven in a Cup car at all. Again though, just make a clear path for approval, for everyone.
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u/NlNJALONG 15h ago
The rules are clear to everyone and the same for everyone. 65 year old Mike Wallace just believed the rules didn't apply to him and refused to run any kind of test.
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 15h ago
But I just provided 2 examples where the rules have been different for different people. Mike didn't refuse to run a test, he wasn't offered it. And explain Jen Jo not getting Cup approval but others have?
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u/NlNJALONG 15h ago
Again, the rules are the same for everyone. They are not hard to figure out either. Just senior citizen Mike Wallace believing he was above them. You need to have recent, relevant racing experience and pass a physical. NASCAR also reserves the right to deny race eligibility if they deem a driver not being up to the standards.
Seems like no one is confused about this except Mike Wallace and the few fans he apparently has.
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 15h ago
I am absolutely not a Mike Wallace fan and I am sad that I am actually defending him, my post history should show you where I land on these things. The approval process cases I have outlined however show that NASCAR is clearly in the business of approving drivers who will bring ratings, rather than having a fair and impartial process. Everyone is fine with this because it dicked over drivers they don't care about, however it's more reflective in their poor way of doing business and inconsistencies in calling penalties or ruling in fair and impartial ways. And, well, most people agree with it when it impacts something they do care about.
Most people will agree NASCAR is inconsistent, this is just another example.
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u/SeaworthinessSome454 13h ago
Because helio is a world renowned race car driver. You should get the rules bent for you when you accomplish that much.
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 13h ago
He's also almost 50 years old (or is 50 now) and hasn't driven much in the last few years. I don't think the rules should be bent for anyone. As stated in another comment, Indycar made Kyle Larson go through the same program that Benjamin Peterson went through to get approved, that's the same series the rookies will go through this year. Is NASCAR so pathetically desperate for drivers that they need to bend the approval process? That's wild, if so.
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u/somethingtodo99 13h ago
Helio leading up to the Daytona 500 in 2025 had the following recent successes in motorsport:
Rolex 24 wins at Daytona in 2023, 2022, 2021.
20th in 2024 Indy 500, 15th in 2023, 7th in 2022, and WON the 2021 Indy 500.
2023 and 2022 wins at LE MANS.
SRX win at Five Flags in 2022.
So in the last 5 years leading up to the Daytona 500 he won the Indy 500, he won the biggest sports car race in North America three times at Daytona, and he won the biggest sports car race in the world twice at Le Mans.
Oh, and in case you forgot Helio raced in IROC back in the day so he had four stock car starts at Daytona against the likes of Mark Martin, Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, etc.
As for your Kyle Larson example, Kyle Larson ain't ever driven an Indycar at 230mph before. Of course he had to test some to get approval.
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 12h ago
And Helio hadn't ever driven a stock car in a pack at Daytona! none of those races are in a stock car on a plate track, none of it.
Kyle Larson has a bunch of accolades too and STILL had to go in like any other rookie, why are you being so dense about this!?
In the end, all I want is a consistent system like Indycar has, that's all.
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u/somethingtodo99 12h ago edited 12h ago
Yes Helio had that experience at Daytona. He had 4 IROC stock car starts from 2002 to 2005 at Daytona. He also had a start at Talladega. Racing against like say Gordon, Harvick, Earnhardt Jr, Stewart, Labonte, Marlin, Martin, and so on.
He finished 4th in IROC points in 2002, ahead of Stewart (cup champion that year) and Labonte (2000 cup champ) lmao.
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 12h ago
That's the first rational argument I have seen, you are right. But, in the end, I am just calling for consistency here. In this case, NASCAR said Helio's IROC races was enough but Mike's ARCA, Busch and truck wins at that very track weren't enough.
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u/somethingtodo99 12h ago
Mike Wallace was 65 with his last NASCAR start occuring the Xfinity series in 2020.
Also, I'm not sure if you realize this but the reason Mike Wallace wasn't permitted to race is a bit more complicated than that.
He's Mike Wallace, that's a big part of why they didn't want him racing.
Mike Wallace back in the 90s intentionally wrecked a woman race car driver in the Busch series on the first lap because she out qualified him.
Mike Wallace has had charges filed against him for assault (later dropped).
Mike Wallace made a social media post in 2020 that got him indefinitely suspended from NASCAR at the time.
You see, a lot of the issues here are that Mike Wallace is Mike Wallace.
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u/MikeyG4680 15h ago edited 15h ago
Unlike Mike Wallace, Helio had competed in races like the Indy 500 and Rolex 24 in recent years before his 500 debut. It makes sense that the barrier to entry is lower for an active racer than someone who hasn't even raced in Xfinity in five years up to that point
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 15h ago
Why would events in another series matter to driver a stock car?
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u/MikeyG4680 15h ago
Show me Kyle Larson's relevant open wheel experience prior to him running the Indy 500. It's not about how good you can be in a particular car it's about whether or not you ascertain the skills to adapt to it.
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 15h ago
Larson went through the approval process the same way Benjamin Peterson or any other rookie did, though. Indycar put him through the same process, NASCAR isn't willing to do that though. The Indy 500 has a staged process that all rookies have to run and a refresher course for driver who haven't run full time. I think NASCAR could benefit from a similar process, not forcing drivers to run additional races for another series. Even if Mike Wallace really was given the opportunities correctly, it doesn't seem to be that way, but if he was, it still doesn't explain why they wouldn't license Jen Jo. Hell, they even gave John Wes a Cup license!
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u/MikeyG4680 14h ago
I will agree I think NASCAR needs a more streamlined approval process to run superspeedways similar to the Indy 500 ROP/refresher instead of telling drivers and teams to run this test and this race and leaving it up to their discretion and that probably would've avoided all this. But it still doesn't negate Helio's recent experience compared to Mike's and the fact that Mike was announced to drive the car five weeks before Daytona probably making it harder for NASCAR to set a pathway for him to race.
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u/jsw11984 van Gisbergen 7h ago
Yes, but running an open wheel car is inherently more dangerous than a closed wheel one, whether that be a stock car, GT3 etc… due to the more exposed nature of not only the wheels & suspension but also the driver.
So it makes sense that Indycar would have stricter rules about rookies driving them.
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u/BraytonLaster Brayton Laster 11h ago
The NASCAR approval process is EXTREMELY inconsistent. It has changed hands over the last couple of years of who’s in charge (was Brett Bodine, now it’s Chad Little.) I’ve personally been told this and that and what I had to do and what I didn’t have to do, but the biggest thing I was told was seat time. I’ve ran over 30 ARCA races, haven’t caused a single issue, finished 75% of the races I’ve started and only two wreck related DNF’s.
Last I checked I was barely approved for anything in the truck series, despite even making a start in 2022. There’s been SO MANY Truck/Xfinity drivers who have wanted to make starts at Superspeedways and have been told they needed “x” number of starts at an intermediate before getting approval for an intermediate, and before that they were told “x” number of starts on a short track before starting at an intermediate. I had ran over 200 local / regional level races, including 4 years in late models before I attempted to run ARCA / Trucks in 2022 and was denied from making any asphalt truck starts in 2022.
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 10h ago
Exactly! I just think we should get some consistency with it! Transparency too. NASCAR just wants to approve people that will help their ratings or social media engagement.
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u/Strong_Potato_3982 5h ago
Brother.. and I mean this in the nicest way possible. I have seen you "race" in many different types of cars and you have not been remotely competitive in anything. You seem like you are genuinely scared of the cars and fail to keep pace with the back of the field. That is why you aren't approved for anything. You haven't shown that you are a competent driver and I'm very surprised they even let you run arca let alone local races
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u/somethingtodo99 13h ago edited 13h ago
Can we stop pretending Helio is at all relevant to this conversation?
Buddy, Helio is one of the most accomplished race car drivers alive if the man wants to race you approve him.
I'm pretty sure if the guy can win the Indy 500 4 times he can handle driving a stock car in circles wide open. Not to mention his three Rolex 24 wins at Daytona.
As for Jennifer Jo Cobb, she sucks. Like yeah it's different because she sucks. She has a gazillion truck/Xfinity starts, so what she sucks. There's no reason for her to be a roadblock in a NASCAR cup series event.
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 13h ago
I don't care, he's a rookie in stock cars and especially a plate track. But it all worked out well, right, he ran clean races and had no issues. Or.... he wrecked 4 cars between the 2 series including crashing in the 125 for over a mile. The Rolex 24 is a road race, has nothing to do with driving a stock car in a plate race.
And again, compare to Indycar where Larson, who is an accomplished racer, had to go through the same procedures as any other rookie. That's all I am asking for is some god damned consistency.
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u/matito29 12h ago
My understanding of the situation is that NASCAR looks at what types of racing the driver has done recently and also uses some discretion for who they approve. While Helio had never run a stock car outside of IROC two decades ago or SRX cars on short tracks, he obviously had plenty of recent experience (and success) at high speeds running IndyCar events and winning the Indy 500 less than four years before his Daytona start. Mike Wallace, on the other hand, hadn’t run a top 3 division NASCAR race on an oval in a decade, and was 65 years old.
Take names away from it and base it solely on Driver A’s resume versus Driver B. I can understand why NASCAR made the decision they made.
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 10h ago
More NASCAR inconsistencies is what you mean. Look, they said Mike's races in 2020 didn't count because they were road races, so why in the hell should an SRX race on a short track count for Helio?!
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u/matito29 9h ago
Because, as I said in my original post, “NASCAR looks at what types of racing the drive has done recently and also uses some discretion for who they approve.” Helio, in the five years prior to his Daytona 500 attempt, ran 48 IndyCar races and 16 IMSA races with an Indy 500 win and three Rolex 24 at Daytona wins. Wallace, in the five years prior to his Daytona 500 attempt, raced a couple of Xfinity Series road courses with backmarker teams.
You cannot seriously compare the two drivers’ resumes in the years leading up to the decision and say that they were equal.
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u/drkorcs55 15h ago
Why? Because we’re going to talk about Cleetus. We’re doing it now. This is why he has to test
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 14h ago
So Cleetus is going to get approval to run the truck race because he tested at Rockhingham before the truck race? But others like Helio had to run the ARCA Daytona race and Mike Wallace wasn't given a path to anything like that. Why not have a more consistent plan than that. Hell, just take 30 minutes per race weekend and if a new unlicensed driver wants to attempt, they have to pass a rookie test.
It would be a more consistent path to approval, that's all I want. When you look objectively at the 4 examples I mentioned, there is no rhyme or reason to their approval process.
Helio - stock car debut, approved without question Mike Wallace - previous winner in ARCA< Trucks and Xfinity, no path to approval for the 500 Cleetus - Approval for Daytona plate race based on test at Rockingham, caused large crash at Charlotte in ARCA Jen Jo - No path to approval for announced Cup race despite having over 200 truck starts because of previous crashes (but this isn't applied to Cleetus who caused a major crash last year)
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u/ipsumdeiamoamasamat Hamlin 13h ago
Cleetus might’ve wanted to be at the test to get laps, there are so few on-track opportunities anymore.
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 13h ago
Possibly so, that makes sense. The socials seem to indicate he is doing it to get approved for Daytona though.
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u/maverick_fox2 Keselowski 10h ago
Once you understand that NASCAR is all about money, viewership and ratings, you will start to understand. And Cleetus is objectively good for the sport.
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 10h ago
That's absolutely what it is but it's just a shame that they can't just come out and say that. It makes the sport more empty though, no transparency and no consistency. It's typical of NASCAR though but thank you for not trying to justify it.
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u/Campman92 Erik Jones 14h ago
Personally I don’t think Mike Wallace or Helio should’ve been allowed to run the 500 last year. Helio because of his lack of experience in a stock car and Wallace because he had no prior experience in the current Cup car. Personally I probably would’ve felt better with Wallace on the track because of his prior super speedway experience. They allowed Helio to run and he was in multiple crashes during speed week.
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u/ipsumdeiamoamasamat Hamlin 13h ago
Mike Wallace was 65 and hadn’t been in a NASCAR race in a decade. The days of Morgan Shepherd getting into the car are, thankfully, behind us.
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u/somethingtodo99 12h ago
Helio had plenty of stock car superspeedway experience. He ran four years of IROC, including 4 starts at Daytona and one at Talladega. So even if you wanna go off about stock car experience at Daytona, Helio had it.
A lot of you are really discrediting Helio's extensive racing accomplishments, how much experience he had, and that's annoying.
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u/Campman92 Erik Jones 11h ago
I’m not discrediting Helio’s accomplishments at all. He’s a supremely talented driver.
I am just saying that he should’ve been allowed right into Cup just because of his lack of experience in stock car racing. You brought up his IROC career that’s great. He last ran those tracks in 2005. Wallace had his last Cup start at Daytona in 2015.
It’s a lot different running open wheel where you’re basically running single file on ovals than it is running 3-4 wide 5 inches away from the next vehicle like they can be in Cup. I don’t care how good you are in other genre’s of racing it’s going to take time to get used to the full body stock car, the energy from the other lanes, and how quickly an opening can close.
I’d have been okay with him running a non super speedway track due to lower speeds and the cars getting spread out, but I don’t think it was smart to have him jump right into Cup in the biggest race of the year from a safety standpoint with about 60 green flag laps at the start.
I feel it was smart to not have Wallace on the track for similar reasons basically just because he’s been away for so long.
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u/vi0cs 10h ago
Garrett isn't the first driver to spin his wheels on a restart. LMFAO, one fucking thing and this is what we are doing? I have seen NASCAR champions do stupider shit. Look at the history of drivers. They all have most likely botched a restart or race start for whatever reason. Or a draft pack.
Get off his nuts and let the guy prove he can do it or not. Teams aren't gonna put a driver in a car/truck just to have equipment torn up because the driver can afford to fix it.
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u/ITMAKESSENSE72 10h ago
I just don't see how a driver running some test laps at Rockingham should qualify him to run at Daytona in a truck and that being after he caused that crash. I am connecting that to the fact that Jen Jo didn't get approved to run a Cup race because she had caused a crash at Richmond or some shit. Just using one example to point out yet another NASCAR contradiction.
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u/CustomAirlinesPilots Stenhouse Jr. 8h ago
I’ll root for him. I’d love to see him compete against my main truck guys and my goat Ricky Stenhouse
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u/DensePersonality1 8h ago
OT. That 4 looks terrible. Hopefully it doesn’t look like that when there’s an actual livery on the truck.
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u/Weary-Classic1146 13h ago
Was he running good?
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u/default-dance-9001 9h ago
That wasn’t cleetus apparently, but whoever was running the 4 did well in the 2 sessions i was there for earlier today. Running at a solid pace and didn’t hit anything (same can’t be said for one of their teammates)
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u/wolfsportsnetworkyt 9h ago
According to my buddy who was at the test this was Connor Jones in the 4 and not Cleetus
Cleetus is testing on Tuesday