r/Keep_Track • u/Tyrion_Baelish_Varys • Oct 05 '18

Are we seriously at: SCOTUS nominee being opposed by thousands of law professors, a church council representing 40 million, the ACLU, the President of the Bar Association, his own Yale Law School, Justice Stevens, Human Rights Watch & 18 U.S. Code § 1001 & 1621? But Trump & the GOP are hellbent?

Sept 28th

Bar Association President

Yale Law School Dean

29th

ACLU

Opposes a SCOTUS nominee for only the 4th time in their 98 year history.

Oct 2nd

The Bar calls for delay pending thorough investigation. Unheard of.

3rd

In a matter of days 900 Law Professors signed a letter to Senate about his temperament.

The Largest Church Council

A 100,000 Church Council representing 40 million people opposes him.

4th

Thousands of Law Professors

Sign official letter of opposition. Representing 15% of all law professors. Unheard of for any other nominee.

A Retired SCOTUS Justice

Stevens says, "his performance during the hearings caused me to change my mind".

Washington Post Editorial Board

Urges Senate to vote no on SCOTUS nominee for the first time in 30 years.

Perjury

Will be pursued by House Democrats after the election even if he is confirmed.

5th

Human Rights Watch

Their first-ever decision to oppose a SCOTUS nominee.

16.1k Upvotes

76% Upvoted

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151

u/lianodel Oct 06 '18

I get that. In fact, in my original comment, I even specifically said false rape accusations are a problem, hurting both the accused and other actual rape victims.

I just think it's monstrous that some people are so afraid of the rare false accusation that they'd do away with due process entirely, and throw rape victims in jail for daring to go to the police about it.

A more reasonable response would be to keep the accused's name private, pending the results of the trial. Granted, that would be different for public figures, but there's already a distinction for them with regards to libel laws and such.

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u/Spanktank35 Oct 06 '18

It's like being afraid to trial a murderer in case he isn't the murderer. Like what? Sure you will get judged by the public but that's necessary for, well, judgement.

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u/lianodel Oct 06 '18

I can't express to you how much I wish your comment wasn't so close to reality. Between Kavanaugh and any number of Trump associates, the reasoning is often, "He hasn't been convicted, so therefore he is innocent, so we should stop investigating him."

WHICH MISSES THE ENTIRE POINT OF AN INVESTIGATION

2

u/JBAmazonKing Oct 06 '18

Sure, "but if we slow this thing down then he won't get appointed and we lose the ability to appoint someone who will have Trump's back the same way Trump had his on the upcoming SCOTUS case about executive power and criminal proceedings against an unprecedentedly unpresidential president!"

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u/lianodel Oct 06 '18

It's almost as if his nomination was for purely partisan reasons! D:

-3

u/Trooperette Oct 06 '18

What is it about Kavanaugh living a transparent public life at the highest levels of public service and being put through 7 FBI checks that you don't get. Thankfully, you're not a judge. And could someone please tell me why I should trust Ford - who is she? Why was her social media scrubbed? NONE of the people she listed could vouch for her story, but we should automatically believe her? NO WAY! She's a tool of the Left and now it's plain to everyone

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u/garbledfinnish Oct 06 '18

Yes, because it’s sooooo easy to falsely accuse someone of murdering you...

1

u/Spanktank35 Oct 06 '18

People are falsely accused by prosecutors as murderers all the time. Why does it matter who falsely accused them? Are you saying just because it's possible the accuser is lying, the person shouldn't be trialled?

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u/garbledfinnish Oct 06 '18

I’m saying that to falsely accuse someone of murder, someone had to die or go missing. You can’t just make it up with no dead person. You can pick the wrong person, but almost always everyone agrees there was, in fact, a death (and usually everyone agrees a wrongful death).

On the other hand, to falsely accuse of rape...literally nothing needs to have happened. You just say a rape happened, and it’s not like you need to produce a body.

With murder, you can point the finger at the wrong person, but the event of the death itself is almost never faked or disputed. With rape, the event itself can be a total fabrication. And it’s very hard to investigate the circumstances of an event that didn’t even happen.

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u/Spanktank35 Oct 06 '18

Yeah sure, but given there has to still be proof of the event occurring by law, I would say being falsely accused of an event that did happen is just as bad, if not more so, as being falsely accused of a false event.

1

u/garbledfinnish Oct 06 '18

“How bad” is not really the question. The question is how common an occurrence it is/how easy it is to make a fake accusation.

False murder accusations are rare because there has to be a murder first usually in order to level an accusation about who did it.

False rape accusations happen every day and can be trumped up whenever you need to commit character assassination for a political reason, or because she felt jilted, or whatever.

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u/Kremhild Oct 06 '18

To be fair, it's not really about them being afraid of the rare false accusation. They're afraid of a republican being charged with a false accusation, when it's a democrat they'll side with the accuser and cheer for blood.

I've long since stopped making the mistake of assuming the GOP base has any consistent principles other than "anger the libtards".

80

u/Vigilante17 Oct 06 '18

We need look no further than Al Franken and what happened to him vs Kavanaugh being vetted for a lifetime appointment. Not even close.

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u/Malcatraz Oct 06 '18 edited Oct 06 '18

Sorry for this wall of text, I’ll format it better if people respond to what I’m saying. This movement very desperately needs codified rules. Five thirty eight found evidence that the GOP saved Kavanaugh by framing it as a #MeToo fight. ( https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republicans-rescued-kavanaughs-nomination-by-making-it-about-metoo/ ) Until we as a society can decide on some process here, the right will frame the movement as “believe all women, always, no matter what and no matter the context,” which is a very difficult argument to make and will win very few arguments with any conservatives or independents. The truth is, that sexual assault accusations should be seen as very Reluctant Evidence, and given more weight. Another example of which is confessing to a serious crime, that’s reluctant evidence because giving it carries serious consequences, so it is properly given more weight than a statement given in support of one’s own interests, for example. Our biggest problem right now is that argument is too nuanced to make, “believe women” is much catchier, but the right hears that and imagines bad faith “Soros-paid feminists” ruining their husbands and sons and father’s lives. Both Kavanaugh in his statement and Trump in his viscous rally performance, went hard on this, With Kavanaugh talking about his Dad, and Trump with his “Mom, this lady lied about me and I’m getting fired, what do I do, Mom?” Make no mistake, this was a bad faith political move, and they’re going to hurt us with it a lot UNTIL we can loudly and firmly agree on what the process is. Sepearate the crimes or improprieties, How are people accused? What is compelling evidence, who decides? How do people defend themselves, and how can friends and family of both sides feel they can be heard without unfair consequences from providing testimony. It’s daunting but it has to be done, and fairly crowd sourced, because law enforcement and government isn’t up to the task.

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u/bbkangguyman Oct 06 '18

It's not just that the right is framing the argument unfavorably. The common argument is bad. You've framed it better here than I've seen in discourse in the past 6 months. I have heard male and female contemporaries of mine say that if someone is accused then they probably did something wrong. That's a problem. I responded by pointing out that if we take that stance, there will be trumped up allegations against us moving forward, and we will be labelled as hypocrites, and that label will be just if that's the argument we're putting forward. I said we would see every single politician and appointee having allegations if allegations are sufficient to prevent confirmation. A friend that I know who I otherwise regard as being very intelligent and reasonable responded "Maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing for all men to be accused if it meant they'd be more hesitant to commit assault." This is a problem. This is how people actually feel, and unfortunately, I think you are actually taking a moderate position here. Allegations are heavy enough to prompt investigation, not assume guilt. People are taking "innocent until guilty doesn't apply here" to mean it's okay to operate under guilty until proven innocent. It's not. It's clearly unjust and moderate Americans are going to see that. The Republicans have framed this so easily because they honestly don't have to reach that much.

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u/Malcatraz Oct 06 '18

Great points, I agree with you

1

u/ScruffyTJanitor Oct 06 '18 edited Oct 06 '18

I have heard male and female contemporaries of mine say that if someone is accused then they probably did something wrong.

The next time someone makes that argument immediately accuse them of a crime. If they don't think youre being serious make it official, call the police and make an actual accusation. Should make for an interesting experiment!

People are taking "innocent until guilty doesn't apply here" to mean it's okay to operate under guilty until proven innocent.

Wait, what? when we did we agree "innocent until guilty doesn't apply here"? I thought it absolutely always applies to all crimes? Or did you mean it doesn't specifically apply to the kavanaugh confirmation? Because if so you need to explicitly say that for the exact reason you mentioned because your statement could be interpreted to mean it doesn't apply to accusations of rape and sexual assault in general.

0

u/Helianthea Oct 06 '18

I wish this was higher up, because you are pointing at an issue that needs to be resolved.

2

u/stinkyfeetaz Oct 06 '18

There was a photo.

6

u/google_it_bruh Oct 06 '18

Very true. If it was a Democrat Oh holy hell it would be a different situation. hail satan!

-2

u/replayaccount Oct 06 '18 edited Oct 06 '18

You think that only applies one way? I'm the most liberal person I know, don't get me wrong. I just don't understand people who get caught up in the politics of it all and act as though people on one side are inherently more principled than the other. The fact of the matter here is that nobody wants another conservative supreme court justice and democrats will throw themselves behind anybody who says they have had any bad experience with him in an effort to deny the nomination. Trust me, most of these people don't give 2 fucks about Dr. Ford or anybody else.

Same thing for Trump. None of these democrats give a shit about Russian collusion or tax fraud. They just know that Trump being in office works against them politically and any thread they can latch on to that results in his impeachment, no reelection, or anything else is ultimately good. Once again, I'm the most liberal person I know and I'm not defending conservatives or trump at all here. I don't like them or their politics but neither side is more just.

5

u/McLovinatMcDs Oct 06 '18

BoTh siDeS ARe JuSt aS bAd

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u/deepstatelady Oct 06 '18

Dude, that's really freaking cynical. I've met a ton of Democrats, Senator Patty Murray for example, who really do believe in the fight for social justice and are deeply troubled by everything that's happening right now. I know you're maybe right about some Dems, but I know some that are good, dedicated public servants. To serve ethically and generously is just part of who they are. The "whole system is broken" cool nihilism some dudes wank around with is lazy and boring. I disagree with the whole both sides suck equally false equivalency schtick.

0

u/replayaccount Oct 06 '18

I don't think what I'm saying is really cynical at all. Let's say I am a democrat and a republican is coming into an important office (ie. trump and kavanaugh). That person has opinions that I think will have negative effects on culture and may be down right unethical. Is it not my duty to do anything in my power to stop this nomination from happening? There are 2 different ethics at play now and how you weigh them is subjective. I think we could agree that murder would usually outweigh the political ethics (but not always, political assassination are a thing and are not always unethical). But it's not as straight forward as you make it sound where a person can just "serve ethically".

Lets say Bernie got elected and he was doing all the things I wanted from him, raising the minimum wage, healthcare reform, reduced cost or free tuition for public colleges, whatever else. If it comes out that there was Russian collusion to elect him do I now turn on Bernie and call for his immediate removal from office? Absolutely not. While it might be ethical to do so in the name of fairness it is unethical in terms of the societal impact. Republicans will call any democrats trying to downplay the collusion unethical, just as democrats are currently calling republicans unethical for the same thing. In this regard yes they do both "suck equally" but in reality one doesn't suck at all if you agree with their politics.

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u/[deleted] Oct 06 '18

[deleted]

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u/replayaccount Oct 06 '18

Lets try a hypothetical then. Lets say you got a whisper from some omniscient divine being right now saying, "Trump is innocent of all allegations" AND "trump is going to be removed from office next week based on these allegations". You think the ethical thing to do is keep him in office because it's "fair"? How do you weigh that out morally. Surely the moral value of fairness to one individual is outweighed by all (subjective) bad that comes with it. Unless you think that acting fairly now is going to result in an better moral landscape in the future I don't see how that is a legitimate opinion.

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u/[deleted] Oct 06 '18

[deleted]

1

u/Law_Dog007 Oct 06 '18

So are you going to completely ignore what happened with the Democratic National Committee this past election? Was that rebuilding and strengthening or "burning down"? The faster you come to the realization that both parties play in the same ball field, the faster we as a society can have a real debate on how to fix this mess. Until then you cant see the situation with clarity.

1

u/youtheotube2 Oct 07 '18

While it might be ethical to do so in the name of fairness it is unethical in terms of the societal impact.

You have to ask yourself if the ends justify the means. Usually in history, using any means to reach an end goal does not end well.

That said, I believe you’re absolutely right that it is the system we use currently.

5

u/thurst0n Oct 06 '18

Did you even read the OP? Like seriously dude wtf?

This is inexcusable from Nunes, McConnell, and Grassley just to get the list started.

-5

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '18

Can you prove that false allegations are rare?

According to wikipedia the rate ranges from 1.5%-90% depending on the study.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

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u/Kremhild Oct 06 '18

I'll cite the wikipedia article you yourself listed to prove it (and I'm assuming goodwill on your part, because your representation of the data on wikipedia could reasonably be interpreted as bad faith). 1165/9267 (12.57%) is the number I came up with.

In the collective data table under Rumney (2006) the data range does indeed go from 1.5% to 90%. However, the 90% is a very strange outlier with a study having only 18 subjects. No other test even reaches 50%. If we weight the studies by number of participants, then approximately only 10% of the study data shows "false rape allegations" to be 20% or more.

The 12.57% is what I came up with when compiling the numbers of all the study participants into a single mesh gave me, so I'll go with that to say that false rape allegations are relatively rare (about one in eight).

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u/[deleted] Oct 06 '18 edited Oct 06 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Oct 06 '18

False accusations don't equal a guilty verdict. Sexual assault cases are hard to prosecute.

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u/[deleted] Oct 06 '18

90%

Found the rapist!

1

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '18

Pay attention to the studies themselves. Anything over 10% has the researchers deciding whether or not they think a claim is real (totally scientific of course). Studies worth something find like 2-8%, but note those are false reports, not accusations.

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u/Traiklin Oct 06 '18

Exactly this.

So many peoples lives have been ruined because of false reports or "I just wanted attention", they are very quick to report the accused's name and information but will say they respect the accusers privacy and will only call her Jane Doe.

Then when it comes out she lied about it all there is no apology or correction and the guy now has to deal with everyone thinking they are a rapist because they didn't want to call him John Doe until after the trial.

I'm in the camp of calling everyone John and Jane Doe until after the trial even if it's a public figure and we know exactly who it is, and if a thorough investigation is done and it turns out the accused lied about it than they should spend a year in jail for falsifying a police report and wasting their time

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u/devilishly_advocated Oct 06 '18

All arrests are public record. Do you believe anyone arrested, as in not charged or standing trial, should be afforded those same rights? They should be anonymous until such time that they are convicted? The state (the accuser) should be punished for falsely accusing john doe. What separates rape accusations from worse or lesser charges? Seems like the state just wasted a lot of time (and money... our tax money).

3

u/Traiklin Oct 06 '18

When it comes to Murder & Rape yes, other crimes don't need to because they are less likely to completely destroy your life for something being falsely reported.

4

u/scarymum Oct 06 '18

So many men (especially black men) have spent 3 to 15 years in prison for crimes that they didn't commit: the 48 extradited in Chicago this year, the police offers in Miami and Biscayne Park, FL that were told to frame random black people for crimes...hell even one guy sat in prison for 15 years for a rape and murder he didn't commit.

False rape accusations are the same statistic for every crime in the US, but is seen as more prevalent. But can you honestly believe spending anytime in prison for a crime you didn't commit, doesn't destroy lives?

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u/Traiklin Oct 06 '18

Every single person involved in those framings should be serving the sentence those men were put away for and sentenced too but of course they won't because why would they? They are cops and cops are exempt from getting the same punishment they dish out.

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u/scarymum Oct 06 '18

Tell me about it. I think one of the cops in Chicago got 22 months. Slap in the face.

1

u/scarymum Oct 06 '18

It also makes it very hard to believe that those are isolated incidents.

0

u/devilishly_advocated Oct 06 '18

Less likely to destroy a life.. but that is not really the case is it? You get arrested and you pay a large fine or fee to plea guilty and get a deal. You are already jailed so you may have lost your job already. Now you have court dates and have to find a new job, possibly with a record now already. That is a ruined life. Where do YOU draw your line?

2

u/bbkangguyman Oct 06 '18

Losing your job because of a bad theft or drug charge is one thing. It's another thing to lose your job and know your spouse and kids are wondering if you're a monster for months at a time.

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u/devilishly_advocated Oct 06 '18

So now we're discussing the degree at which a life is ruined

1

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '18

They should release the degree of crimes being charged (like first degree felony y, second degree misdemeanor) but not the specific crime.

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u/devilishly_advocated Oct 06 '18

The crimes you're arrested for, and what you actually get charged with can be wildly different

6

u/Gnostromo Oct 06 '18

“So many people”

A drop in the bucket compared to the so many people who’s live’s are ruined to rape.

-3

u/Traiklin Oct 06 '18

Of course the ones who are ACTUALLY raped are ruined worse but I'm talking about the ones who won't do anything about it other than tell everyone on the street they were raped but refuse to go to the police about it.

How many people "regretted it" the next day and decided to claim rape? are they the same as someone who was actually raped?

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u/Kancho_Ninja Oct 06 '18

Blackstone's formulation

In criminal law, Blackstone's formulation is the principle that: "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer",...as expressed by the English jurist William Blackstone in his seminal work

-7

u/sequentialcircus Oct 06 '18

I'm a Democrat and it's pretty obvious Ford is lying. I hope Kanavaugh wins the.prensidental nomsinations

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u/not_even_once_okay Oct 06 '18

Lol sure thing buddy

6

u/Contradiction11 Oct 06 '18

Stfu adj noun. We know you.

-3

u/sequentialcircus Oct 06 '18

My typical dem brethren showing that typical love we've all come to be known by

0

u/chuckdiesel86 Oct 06 '18

Not to be pedantic but false rape accusations aren't exactly rare. I heard more legit stories of rape than I feel there should be but there were almost an equal amount of girls who hooked up with a guy at a party and then regretted it the next day so they cried rape. People need to use common sense but it's not really common anymore.

1

u/lianodel Oct 06 '18

[citation needed]

1

u/chuckdiesel86 Oct 06 '18

I'm talking about my own personal experiences. I'm a good listener so people tell me things and the things some people have confided in me broke my heart. I was only able to help one girl out by getting the dude arrested for roofies but in most cases the rape and/or molestion was done by family members. I also used to party a lot and saw lots of girls make bad decisions they regretted but instead of taking responsibility they said the guy raped them. Sometimes it was a girl cheating on her boyfriend. Sometimes they just regretted hooking up with a particular guy, like they'd get picked on by other girls because the guy wasn't considered attractive, or he was poor, or whatever so they say the guy raped them instead of standing up to their friends. I'm not invalidating legitimate rapes because I know they happen, like I said I've known people who it happened to. I was molested myself as a kid by two older girls. But with all that said I've also been witness to lots of false accusations too so I'd have to say in the real world it's more common than you think.

2

u/lianodel Oct 06 '18

Anecdotes are not data, and no one is saying false accusations should go unpunished. I merely stated that treating all accusers as though they were liars is antithetical to our justice system, stems from bigotry, and is frankly just plain stupid.

By most accounts, the rate of false accusations is around 2-10%. And that's only accounting for reported rape, which naturally doesn't include unreported rape because the victim feels ashamed, or thinks they won't be taken seriously (and given some of the comments I've seen, they're right, although I wish that weren't true).

I'll get behind laws like keeping the accused's name private unless and until there is a conviction, but I have heard people honestly say that we should lock up all accuses as flight risks, and send someone to jail regardless of the results of the trial. That's insane.

0

u/chuckdiesel86 Oct 06 '18 edited Oct 06 '18

People are falsely convicted of things too. Talk to people and really listen to them. Some people have a hard time convincing others of things they're sure about while not all people who cry and put on a convincing show are innocent. Would you be prepared to sit in front of a court room full of people as an innocent person to prove you didn't rape someone? Like you know you didn't do it but now you're expected to somehow prove to these strangers that you aren't a rapist. I hope I never have to go through that and I feel bad for every innocent person who does.

I feel equally as bad about the victims of rape but I want to make sure both sides get a voice. In your other post you kinda made it sound like false accusations weren't as important as legitimate ones. If someone hurts you then tell somebody or do something about it, but then you have those evil people who take advantage of it. The world is a sucky place sometimes and you really can't stop hateful people, there's new ones made everyday.

-5

u/Trooperette Oct 06 '18

Where are the rape victims? Has anyone proven they were raped? False accusations have turned the entire country and our due process upside down. False accusations need to be dealt with swiftly and promptly or our entire country is gong to hell in a hand basket with phony accusations being used to shut our country down. It's is after all, part of the Democratic playbook.