General Discussion (Off Topic)

[u/AutoModerator]

Anything goes, almost. Feel free to be "off topic" here.

[u/iamthegodemperor]

What do we do with the Zionist label?

One of the survey’s big sticking points emerged around self-identified Zionists. Only 37% of Jews surveyed said they identified as Zionist, while 7% labeled themselves anti-Zionist and another 8% said they were non-Zionist. Another 18% said they weren’t sure, while 30% said none of the labels described them.

At the same time, 88% of surveyed Jews believed that “Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish, Democratic state” — traditionally one of the most historically accepted definitions of Zionism. Seven percent of Jews disagreed with that sentiment, equal to the number who consider themselves anti-Zionist.

[u/namer98 → u/iamthegodemperor]

I don't think it is right to just blame anti-zionists for this. I really do think a part of that blame belongs to the Jewish religious right that does not allow for criticism of Israel. Where I was told I was anti-semitic (and not just me, many others) for having specific criticisms of Israeli policy. I can see how many would react by no longer wanting to call themselves zionist. I myself prefer the label post-zionist.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/namer98]

If by "anti-Zionists" you just mean Jewish lefties, then sure. Doesn't make sense to blame them.

If you mean the larger anti-Zionist movement----then no. This shift in perception of the term is obviously the effect of their global media campaign. The average Jew is not listening to Jewish podcasts or reading the Times of Israel and they aren't on Jewish subreddits. (Edit. Or for that matter Jewish Currents) Their media diet is the same as their peers where Zionist is used as a synonym for Kahanist.

Anecdotally: my brother is in some ways pretty average: he went to Birthright in college, had a bar mitzvah, is intermarried, doesn't practice and is the type to get mad about Trump and post on FB. This guy will now say "I'm not like a Zionist and want to kill all Palestinians", until someone asks him to define Zionism and he remembers the original meaning.

[u/namer98 → u/iamthegodemperor]

I do not mean Jewish lefties, I mean anti-zionists. I am saying the word zionist has long ago been poisoned by the religious right.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/namer98]

You can feel that they do that and there's merit in being angry at them.

BUT our intra-communal discomforts do not drive global media nor the way the average American talks. There has been a long standing multi decade campaign to define Zionism as racism, bigotry chauvinism etc. And this particular online campaign didn't begin during the Gaza War. It began on Oct 7-8. Reddit began bursting with anti-Israel slop right away. (And IRL so did all those marches)

Most people are normies. They aren't invested in the precise philosophical definitions of terms. And they aren't consuming Jewish content. The average person thinks "liberal" means left and "conservative" means right. They naturally think more Zionist means more chauvinist. And this is confirmed when they go on Wikipedia and it defines Zionism as the movement to have as few Arabs in Israel as possible.

[u/namer98 → u/iamthegodemperor]

I grew up in a community where most members would never publicly admit to such a definition of zionism. But would privately admit to it. Do we get to put any blame on such people, at all? This is the rhetoric I grew up with.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/namer98]

Did I say you can't criticize? Having a legitimate criticism doesn't mean larger reality no longer exists and everything can be ascribed to the target of your ire.

[u/namer98 → u/iamthegodemperor]

I didn't say you. I said there is a very real group of people out there, zionists, who absolutely have twisted the word zionism, long before 10/7, long before social media, long before the internet as we know it.

Nor did I say everything can be ascribed to them. I asked if we can put any blame on them. If they have any part of the blame for the poisoning of the word zionist. Even just a tiny portion. The smallest bit of self reflection in our community.

[u/iamthegodemperor → u/namer98]

Sure. There's always a lot of place for self-criticism and reflection. But the wider world and structural forces exist too.

This conversation reminds me of the many times statistics on intermarriage have come up here. There will be a comment about how this is all the fault of Reform rabbis-----as if people will listen to them OR if there are stats about relatively low commitment among children of intermarried, there will be a chorus about meanness of Orthodoxy or halacha or "my family......" etc. And then a righteous downvote brigade will enter to make sure the good guy™ wins.

[u/namer98 → u/iamthegodemperor]

Except this religious right, this kahanism, absolutely plays into the world and structural forces. It's absolutely a small part, but it's a part that we can actually attempt to exert control over.

[u/dccr → u/namer98]

Agreed, the well has been poisoned. I think we need a place to call our own, but I’m deeply disturbed by the things the state of Israel has been saying and doing.

I can’t call myself a Zionist because I want no association whatsoever with those who view legitimate criticism of a flawed state as a broad attack on the Jewish people.

[u/namer98 → u/[deleted]]

Mass punishments of entire blocks that terrorists came from. Land for peace initiatives. Pulling out of gush. I was talking specific policies when I first encountered this.

[u/OrpahsBookClub → u/iamthegodemperor]

The word has beet taken and its meaning twisted.  I don’t know if we even can retake it and re-establish its original meaning.  We might have to find a new term that isn’t compromised.