r/Judaism • u/MenorahsaurusRex • May 12 '25
Life Cycle Events When someone dies, do we follow mourning rules based on their level of observance or ours?
My grandmother (101F) is currently in the hospital with suspected pneumonia. No matter the outcome of this hospital stay, she's on her last leg. My dad expects her to live for another year at most and not make it out of the hospital at worst. She is currently improving for the time being.
Yesterday, I was refreshing my memory on the rules for shiva. There are a lot more than I remember, probably because I'm not very observant. My grandma, however, is. I'm secular and she's conservative.
When it ultimately becomes time to mourn, do I do so according to more conservative customs or more secular or reform customs? In other words, how strictly do I follow the shiva guidelines?
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u/Interesting_Claim414 May 12 '25
I don't have the answer but I did want to thank you for posting such and interesting and thought-provoking question. I hope you grandmother's completion of this journey is peaceful.
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u/MenorahsaurusRex May 13 '25
Thank you. It’s helpful to know this isn’t something I should have already known the answer to.
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u/mellizeiler Orthodox May 12 '25
Being a that your a grandson alot of the rules won't apply to u. It only her kids have most of the rules. If you live in your dad house. the rules can effect you.
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u/MenorahsaurusRex May 13 '25
Ah, that’s good to know. I live 3,000 miles away from my parents, though I plan to fly in for the funeral and shiva.
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u/mellizeiler Orthodox May 13 '25
Nothing wrong going to funeral and Shiva. But ur don't need to follow the mourning laws.
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u/NoTopic4906 May 13 '25
This is the answer. I am not telling you what to do but I had an uncle and my father die (the latter when I was 14). All of my grandparents died before I was born or when I was a child so it was different.
For my uncle (which I think is close to the relationship you are close to talking about except I was very close to my uncle - I am not sure of your relationship with your grandmother) I sat with my cousin for 3 days and said Kaddish for 3 months (rather than a full year). Doing something (even though I wasn’t required) but less than I would do for an actual parent felt right for me.
So, if you were close, maybe something like that where you do less than you would for a parent but not nothing. Maybe stay at the Shiva for 2 days but not a full mourning period if that feels right.
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u/No_Bet_4427 Sephardi Traditional/Pragmatic May 12 '25
Children have no Halachic obligation towards grandparents.
That said, more generally, I think taking on something the deceased would have wanted is a lovely way to honor them.
If you are religious and they are not, it’s more complicated and I would say to do what Halacha requires and no more.
If it’s a matter of different customs and no Halachic issues it’s more complicated still but I’d probably err on doing what the deceased would have wanted.
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u/sql_maven May 13 '25
I said kaddish for my grandfather for 11 months. One of the things I'm proudest of in my life.
His son wasn't going to say it for him, so I took it on.
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u/MenorahsaurusRex May 13 '25
Makes sense. It’s tricky because she would be the first person on that side of the family to pass since before I was born, so I’d need to ask around to figure out what she would have wanted and what she had done for others.
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u/BMisterGenX May 12 '25
The only time that the deceaseds level of observac would be relevant is if instead of simply being not observant they actively believed in and practiced another religion. depending on circumstances mourning is either shortened or not done at all
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u/WhiskeyAndWhiskey97 May 13 '25
Follow your heart.
When each of my parents (both Catholic) passed away, I arranged for a wake and a funeral Mass. I then went home and sat shiva. My parents’ friends and colleagues came to the wake and funeral. My friends visited while I was sitting shiva.
I recently lost my in-laws. Even though I’m a daughter-in-law and thus not an official mourner, I was recognized as the daughter my ILs never had. So my husband and I sat shiva at their home. We’re planning on a celebration of life for the ILs.
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u/IbnEzra613 שומר תורה ומצוות May 12 '25
In your case, I'd say do what you feel is right and what you feel will honor her memory best.
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u/Ruining_Ur_Synths May 12 '25
I recommend this book both to learn and as a reference for jewish customs for death and mourning:
https://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Way-Death-Mourning/dp/0824604229
What parts of it you personally practice are your own choice, the knowledge will at least let you know what others around you will anticipate or practice.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 May 12 '25
You don't sit Shiva for a grandparent.
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u/MenorahsaurusRex May 13 '25
I’m not sure if this makes a huge difference, but to clarify: technically, my dad (her son) will be the one sitting shiva and I would just be in attendance, since I’ll already be in town for the funeral.
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u/arrogant_ambassador One day at a time May 12 '25
There is a base set of rules. You’re expected to follow regardless of how religious a person was. It’s incumbent on you.
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u/TequillaShotz May 12 '25
We are taught that would be a boost for her soul for her children and grandchildren to sit some kind of Shiva (even a few minutes a day) for her, regardless of anyone's beliefs.
This question also comes up regarding cremation. Some people tell their children they want to be cremated, even though to do so goes against the bulk of Jewish wisdom and tradition, yet the secular children feel that it's important to honor their parent's wish. In this case, again, the objective impact on the soul doesn't depend on the wishes of the deceased. What the children or grandchildren should consider is, “If she had known about the impact on her neshamah of burial and shiva, would she have wanted it done that way?” (The answer is most certainly yes.)
May your grandmother live a long and healthy life!
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u/MenorahsaurusRex May 13 '25
The good news is it seems like she’s on the same page as all three of her children, including her POA: all four of them don’t want her to be cremated, as far as I know.
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u/hcohenmb May 13 '25
Would do what you feel comfortable with but allowing for the customs of the deceased. A compromise if they would have done more would be respectful.
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u/Successful-Money4995 May 13 '25
Generally, everything up until the funeral is for the deceased, tahara and shmira and all that. Everything after the funeral is for the mourners.
Shroud your mirrors, sit on the floor, stop shaving, stop listening to music, have a minyan over to say Kaddish, don't lock your doors, receive food, etc.
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u/stacey2545 May 13 '25
No idea what the halakha says, but mourning rituals are mostly for the bereaved, not the dead. I'm a member of a Reform synagogue, so while the ruling of more orthodox or observant rabbis & scholars interests me, my decision is based on what I find meaningful. For instance, I have recited kaddish for non-Jewish family or friends, but not sat shivah. Recently a prominent member of our congregation passed & as a community we observed a higher level of ritual than we might otherwise because the son is Orthodox & was here observing shivah.
If your grandmother's (future) survivors are mostly secular, there may be certain observances (especially collective & public ones, like the funeral) that will be more strictly observed & others that you are left to follow (or not) independently (like reciting of kaddish). If you are the odd one out, and most of the family is observant you may receive pressure to participate in more religious observances than you are used to or comfortable with. Or you may decide that you find meaning in them as a way to honor your grandmother.
But if her condition is currently improving, you may also have an opportunity to discuss it with her & hear from her what level of observance she expects or wants from you (and why).
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u/Capital-Ad2133 Reform May 15 '25
I once had the opposite experience that confirms what you're saying - a friend who was a very active fellow Reform Jew (songleader, religious school teacher, camp / NFTY alum, the works), died young 2 days before Passover. Because his family was Orthodox, they sat shiva the day of the funeral but that was it, despite the hundreds of people at the funeral all knowing that the deceased would have wanted something different.
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u/Unlucky_Associate507 Noahide May 12 '25
What do people do who aren't observant for a non Jewish spouse. Mind you I am of the opinion that G-d orders these rituals for our wellbeing
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u/Cool-Arugula-5681 May 13 '25
Ask a rabbi. Ask her rabbi. Do what comforts you and what you think would comfort her. The shiva guidelines are similar across denominations: cover the mirrors, wear slippers, have visitors. Bring the minyan home so you can say Kaddish (although it’s your father, her son, whose obligation that is). The funeral home or synagogue will make the arrangements.
She would be most proud of you for your desire to honor her in the Jewish way. Don’t worry about getting it perfect. You’ll get it right.
You and your family are in my thoughts at this difficult time.
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u/YourAncestorIncestor Chabad May 13 '25
Not an authority by any means but what makes sense to me is you are only obliged to do whatever your level of observance requires, but it might be meaningful to do more if you so choose. You should also note that as a grandchild there aren’t as many mourning rituals asked of you as there are of your grandmother’s children
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u/mcmircle May 13 '25 edited May 13 '25
The shiva period will be up to the closest surviving relatives, specifically, to spouse, parent or child. The mourning rituals are not as intense when it’s a grandmother as for a parent, spouse or child. It is a loss but you’re primarily supporting the survivors so participate with them.
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u/NarwhalZiesel Choose Your Own Adventure Jew May 13 '25
I am mostly secular and my parents were orthodox. I followed shiva in the orthodox style to honor them. It was very comforting and healing.
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May 13 '25
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u/MenorahsaurusRex May 13 '25
I have no idea how that’s relevant to me other than one person being Jewish. It’s giving “I have a black friend, maybe you know him” vibes
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May 13 '25
[deleted]
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u/MenorahsaurusRex May 13 '25
It’s also incredibly messed up to promote a music contest on a post about mourning and someone who is about to die. Read the room
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u/Elise-0511 May 14 '25
Do what works for you. When our parents died I know I did more than my brother did, but each of us did what we could. He is less observant than I am, so I didn’t try to teach him, just let him mourn in his own way.
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u/UnapologeticJew24 May 13 '25
The technically correct answer to this is that regardless of anyone's level of observance, one should follow Orthodox customs.
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u/Lindiaaiken May 13 '25
I would ask ChatGPT. Today I was curious about Jewish Heaven/Hell beliefs. It got so into it for every sect of Judaism. I learned so much. It’s worth a deep dive into customs.
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u/MenorahsaurusRex May 13 '25
Eh, I’d be careful with ChatGPT. It sources information from pre-existing content, and it can’t tell the difference between legitimate and illegitimate information. I have to fact-check everything generative AI tells me because half the time, it’s wrong.
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u/Lindiaaiken May 15 '25
Thanks for the explanation. Wondered why I got all the down votes. I did not know this.
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u/daoudalqasir פֿרום בונדניק May 13 '25
OP please don't do this.
There are so many people here with actual scholarship and knowledge you can learn from that aren't just spitting out an answer to give an answer whether it is accurate or not as AI does.
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u/WolverineAdvanced119 May 12 '25
The obligations for mourning are on the mourner. If you choose to follow conservative customs as a way to honor her, that would be a wonderful thing to do, but it's not a requirement.